clip of AfterBurner in 3D (Sega 3D Ages on PS2)

[Grall]

VR arcade in the place where I live looks like complete ass, if you ask me.

Well, I respectfully disagree. The game is very stylish and does a lot with what it's got to offer IMO.

It reminds of those 3D games on C64, only with much higher framerate.

...And tons and tons more geometry (ffs, enemy ships in Elite on C64 were composed of like six triangles and the framerate was still horrible), and tons and tons more colors too.

It doesn't look nearly as nice coloured as that screen above

Sure it does. Your arcade must have a sucky screen for it.

VR on the screens I saw had very rich colors, almost same colorscheme as Mario64 on N64.


*G*

 

[Megadrive1988]

random comments, ramble ramble

Virtua Racing arcade game from 1992, as someone else said, is not using cel shading, or any special rendering techniques. it is simply flat shaded polygons (no gouraud, no texture) running at 30 fps. it's like HardDriving but with alot more polygons. 180,000 flat shaded triangle (or rectangle) polygons a second. that was alot for 1992.

a whole load of VR pics to see. click the pictures to see larger versions.

http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyerdb&subpage=thumbs&id=1320
http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyerdb&subpage=thumbs&id=1321
http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyerdb&subpage=thumbs&id=1322

again, simply flat-shaded polygons. no special rendering methods here. just well designed cars and tracks, made by AM2, on fast-for-the-time polygon hardware. And no, the Nintendo Super FX chip could NOT do this, nor could Sega's SVP or 32x.

The Model 1 board was a joint development between Sega and General Electric Aerospace. basicly all the polygons are crunched by a bunch of DSPs. Sega Model 1 is the direct rival of Namco's System 21 board that ran Cyber Sled, Air Combat, Star Blade, etc.

I think in 1993, well after Model 1 was complete, GE Aerospace was bought by Martin-Mariettia Corp. Sega went to MM to improve the Model1. MM provided its texture mapping technology. it was basicly an upgrade board for Model 1 plus some other improvements. this new improved version of Model 1 with texture mapping was called Model 2. it first showed up in Daytona USA in early 1994. Model 2 became very famous for arcades. it was Sega's workhorse, even after Model 3 showed up in 1996.


Slightly off-topic: It's my opinion that Sega should have based the Saturn on a combined System 32 (sprites) and Model 1 (flat shaded polys), leaving full 3D texture mapping, lighting, shading, filtering, mip-mapping, AA, etc. for the cartridge upgrade ( Real3D, PowerVR or whatever).

*ahem* anyway

Back to Virtua Racing: The Sega Genesis version with the special SVP
(sega virtua processor) chip is around 1/60th or at best, 1/36th of the arcade version in terms of graphics.

The 32x version has several times (2-4x) the polygon count of the Genesis SVP version, putting the 32x version at roughly 1/20th, or at best, 1/9th of the Model 1 arcade.

Arcade VR: 180,000 polys sec
Genesis SVP VR: 3,000~5,000 polys sec
Genesis 32x VR: 6,000~20,000 polys sec (rough estimate)

[note that official Genesis 32x specs of 50,000 T-mapped polygons a sec mean nothing compared to actual figures in real games]

I have never seen the Saturn version but I've heard it's worse than the 32x version in gameplay. graphically the Saturn VR looks better than the 32x VR in screen shots, yet still not like the arcade at all. Saturn VR was coded by Time Warner Interactive, or some other 4th rate developer.

It would be nice if the PS2 version actually surpassed the arcade in every way, while keeping the "look" the same. just smoother framerate and more flat shaded polys. And gameplay/timing exact, also.

Now just because the PS2 is infinitely more powerful than Model 1, does not mean anything. It doesn't automatically mean VR on PS2 will rival the VR arcade machine. Only the potential is there. It is all up to the developer to make it as good, or better. sorry for stating the obvious. I suspect another f___up job, as with many Sega arcade-to-home conversions. Although some of the comments from those who have seen it have been very positive so there is some hope.

edit: found some arcade VR pics that I can post. thanks to rock-the-end on GA for finding these.

 

[Reznor007]

I actually own 3 Virtua Racing arcade boards. The game isn't as fun as some may remember it. The arcade I work at also has Virtua Fighter 1. Both games have fairly bland color. Mario64 uses alot more color.

As for a Model 1 emulator, there is, but it only runs the 2d tilemap stuff. The 3d graphics are done on a custom Fujitsu DSP chip which is totally undocumented. I'm going to donate my VR boards for experimentation purposes though. The 3d chips have internal ROM which isn't dumped at the moment.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I actually own 3 Virtua Racing arcade boards. The game isn't as fun as some may remember it. The arcade I work at also has Virtua Fighter 1. Both games have fairly bland color. Mario64 uses alot more color.

I agree Virtua Racing arcade was not a helluva lot of fun. It was much more impressive just to watch. Daytona USA was infinitally more fun.


As for the VR arcade and Mario64 comparasion, yeah, Mario64 was much better, and more impressive overall. N64 could do gouraud shading with ease, plus minimal texture mapping, AA, filtering, and other effects, of which Model 1 had none. Both VR arcade and Mario64 moved at 30 FPS with well over 100,000 z-buffered polygons per second. so they were comparable in that sense, because both Model 1 and N64 produced true z-buffered polygons unlike PS1 or Saturn. And it's also true that Mario64 was much more colorful than VR thanks to N64's 16-bit or 24-bit color, and texture mapping (even though the texturing was minimal). I would hope that SGI hardware, consumer hardware even, developed in 1994-1995 and released in 1996, surpassed the General Electric Model 1 hardware of 1992

 

[Grall]

Reznor:
Can you get some pics of those Model1 boards? I'd like to see what they look like.

Megadrive:
When I used M64 as a comparison I meant the general color scheme of the game, IE fairly saturated base colors like red, green, blue, yellow etc. Obviously Mario64 has a lot more shades than VR for any number of reasons.

Also, I'm pretty damn sure M64 runs at nowhere NEAR 100k polys/sec. Maybe some of the levels where you can get very high up and see all of it at once, but then the framerate usually sags so that probably equals things out.


*G*

 

[Fafalada]

It reminds of those 3D games on C64, only with much higher framerate.

Much as I love those 8bit machines, that's pushing it a bit Marc, you could have at least said Amiga (framerate and polycount is still higher either way).
Particularly since C64 3d games with filled polys were limited to Castle Master (1-2fps) and The Jet (1-2 seconds per frame ).
Now maybe if you said Ataris or Speccys, they had their fair share of proper 3d games that ran respectably

 

[chaphack]

Wait a min...the screens do look very nice but you guys saying the actual running game is just hohohum?

Nevertheless, i would expect an updated version to, at least, look/run exactly like those screens! That would rock! Killer7 Racing! and not a poooo ass looking PS2 game as it is now.... :?

 

[jvd]

VR arcade in the place where I live looks like complete ass, if you ask me. It reminds of those 3D games on C64, only with much higher framerate. It doesn't look nearly as nice coloured as that screen above, but it may be just a crappy washed-out arcade monitor.

You do know that the only reason why gt3 and 4 exist is because of that game right there . ANd you do know that the only reason why soul caliber 2 and tekken 4 exist is because of the first virtual fighter. Sega sank tons of money into model 1 . Long before sony ever though up the playstation. The model 2 followed and the games steped up and we got daytona , vf2 , house of the dead and other games. Then came model 3 and we got vf3 which looked better than any other game for over 3 years before soul caliber 1 came out and equaled it .

 

[marconelly!]

Guys, don't get upset, I respect history and all, but VR just doesn't look very good, IMO :\

Much as I love those 8bit machines, that's pushing it a bit Marc, you could have at least said Amiga (framerate and polycount is still higher either way).

True, I actually meant to say Amiga, but got confused due to the lack of sleep

Now maybe if you said Ataris or Speccys, they had their fair share of proper 3d games that ran respectably

Can you name some better 3D games for Spectrum 48K? I'd like to see that.

Nevertheless, i would expect an updated version to, at least, look/run exactly like those screens! That would rock! Killer7 Racing! and not a poooo ass looking PS2 game as it is now....

Uhh, people who played it said it actually looks improved from the arcade. Running at 60FPS, for example.

 

[Reznor007]

Reznor:
Can you get some pics of those Model1 boards? I'd like to see what they look like.

Megadrive:
When I used M64 as a comparison I meant the general color scheme of the game, IE fairly saturated base colors like red, green, blue, yellow etc. Obviously Mario64 has a lot more shades than VR for any number of reasons.

Also, I'm pretty damn sure M64 runs at nowhere NEAR 100k polys/sec. Maybe some of the levels where you can get very high up and see all of it at once, but then the framerate usually sags so that probably equals things out.


*G*

http://www.system16.com/sega/hrdw_model1.html

If you want more detail than that, I could take a picture of my boards later on. The picture there is only the main CPU/video/ROM boards. The sound board, I/O board, and communication boards are absent.

 

[jvd]

Reznor:
Can you get some pics of those Model1 boards? I'd like to see what they look like.

Megadrive:
When I used M64 as a comparison I meant the general color scheme of the game, IE fairly saturated base colors like red, green, blue, yellow etc. Obviously Mario64 has a lot more shades than VR for any number of reasons.

Also, I'm pretty damn sure M64 runs at nowhere NEAR 100k polys/sec. Maybe some of the levels where you can get very high up and see all of it at once, but then the framerate usually sags so that probably equals things out.


*G*

http://www.system16.com/sega/hrdw_model1.html

If you want more detail than that, I could take a picture of my boards later on. The picture there is only the main CPU/video/ROM boards. The sound board, I/O board, and communication boards are absent.

I have a model 1 / 2 and 3 in my basement none are working right now. Got them all for free. Games are vf , sega rally and vf3 . I worked part time at an arcade and when the machines finally died out they were given to me. So in my spare time i'm trying to get them up and running

 

[Megadrive1988]

While Model 1 arcade Virtua Racing might not look good at all anymore, the home butcherings of it look far, far worse. All I ask for is a 100% faithful port. no more. no less.

 

[jvd]

While Model 1 arcade Virtua Racing might not look good at all anymore, the home butcherings of it look far, far worse. All I ask for is a 100% faithful port. no more. no less.

Things were diffrent back then . Now we have the ps2 and that is what they use in the arcades. Back then they had model 1 and then at home the genesis . That be like having a playstation at home and in the arcade having a dreamcast. There is no way to bring the game home the same as it looked in the arcade. Compare virtual racing to the games of the time and you will be blown away. Hell the games of model 1 weren't surpassed till model 2 came out

 

[Megadrive1988]

Things were diffrent back then . Now we have the ps2 and that is what they use in the arcades. Back then they had model 1 and then at home the genesis . That be like having a playstation at home and in the arcade having a dreamcast. There is no way to bring the game home the same as it looked in the arcade. Compare virtual racing to the games of the time and you will be blown away. Hell the games of model 1 weren't surpassed till model 2 came out

Well everything you said there is 100% true. I'm not debating that at all.

Model 1 in 1992-1993 was unsurpassed, with 2 exceptions- Namco's
System 21 "Polygonizer" which was Model 1's direct rival with its flat
shaded polys, and the System22 with texture-mapping that appeared
in 1993 in Ridge Racer.

As for Virtua Racing, it could have been done fairly well on
Playstation, which could spit out alot of polygons, especially
if they were untextured. Even the Saturn could have done a
decent ver of VR if Sega had programmed it. N64 also, could
have done VR quite well, since it excelled at non-textured
polygons.

I would not say the same thing about any Model 2 game, since
Model 2 was an order of magnitude beyond Model 1.
N64-Saturn-PS1 could not handle faithful Model 2 conversions,
and never did.

100% identical faithful ports of Model 1 and Model 2 games would
not be possible though, until the Dreamcast. And with what I said
above, I didn't want to suggest that N64, PS1 and Saturn could do
100% identical Model 1 games, only that they could have done
somewhat close reproductions.


Now, with GameCube and XBox, we have enough performance
and memory to handle ANY Sega arcade game from the 1990s.
Model 3 Step 2 games should be a cakewalk for either console.
It's only a matter of Sega's willingness to bring them over, which
is practically null at this point, unfortunately.

 

[Reznor007]

Reznor:
Can you get some pics of those Model1 boards? I'd like to see what they look like.

Megadrive:
When I used M64 as a comparison I meant the general color scheme of the game, IE fairly saturated base colors like red, green, blue, yellow etc. Obviously Mario64 has a lot more shades than VR for any number of reasons.

Also, I'm pretty damn sure M64 runs at nowhere NEAR 100k polys/sec. Maybe some of the levels where you can get very high up and see all of it at once, but then the framerate usually sags so that probably equals things out.


*G*

http://www.system16.com/sega/hrdw_model1.html

If you want more detail than that, I could take a picture of my boards later on. The picture there is only the main CPU/video/ROM boards. The sound board, I/O board, and communication boards are absent.

I have a model 1 / 2 and 3 in my basement none are working right now. Got them all for free. Games are vf , sega rally and vf3 . I worked part time at an arcade and when the machines finally died out they were given to me. So in my spare time i'm trying to get them up and running

Make sure you have a medium resolution monitor to test them with(25KHz horizontal sync).

Heh...funny you should mention your boards have problems. Mine do too, certain models(up close tires, pit crew) will not be drawn on 1 of them.

On that topic...I'm wondering how Model 1 renders. You can see the place where the missing models would go PERFECTLY cutout from the rest of the screen. The 2d sky in the background is still drawn, however, no polygons that would just barely overlap behind them are drawn. It seems as if it were a deferred renderer of some sort.

I may be getting 3 more Model 1 boards soon( 2 Virtua Racing, 1 Virtua Fighter), except these are perfectly working

 

[London Geezer]

bloody hell... if they took their hands out of their asses, they could make this a gem... i mean, flat shaded polygons on PS2.... gosh that could make the polygon count go up to at least 30-40 million "in game"... that would be, u wouldnt see the flat polygon lines but everything would be smooth and curvy....
i mean, make this game look like the original would guarantee them a big LAUGH from everyone, considering how many polygons PS2 can push... and also, if they dont somehow manage to put something really innovative, how do they think they can compete with GT4, Colin4, WRC3 in sales and sheer "wow impact"..... i mean i used to love VR, and also bought the Genesis version, but that was more than 10 years ago, and release something that looks like that with no enhancements would be pathetic.

 

[jvd]

Heh none of you get it . THe staurn and ps2 came out 3 years after virtual racing. By that time we had model 2 games and no one wanted to play with the model 1 games anymore. Just like now no one cares about psone games .

 

[London Geezer]

Heh none of you get it . THe staurn and ps2 came out 3 years after virtual racing. By that time we had model 2 games and no one wanted to play with the model 1 games anymore. Just like now no one cares about psone games .

huh?

 

[deviantchild]

While Model 1 arcade Virtua Racing might not look good at all anymore, the home butcherings of it look far, far worse. All I ask for is a 100% faithful port. no more. no less.

i'm with you totally there

to the doubters, there is a sense of style there, as there was with other games such as I-Robot or Zarch & Virus and even StarFox - some ppl, such as myself, still wave the vector flag for style too

if anyone knows of any modern flat-shaded games/demos, with perhaps some lighting thrown in i'd like to hear of them

with regards to VR, to analyse the gfx too much is missing the point - it had a fantastic scale to the tracks which was perfect for head-to-head racing, as was said before - i've not come across this since in any racing game (well, i suppose to a degree F-ZeroX had elements)

 

[Grall]

Deviant,
The only recent demo I can think of with flat-shading, or what comes reasonably close anyway, is Farb-Rauch's "The Modern Demo", though the overall look certainly isn't flat-shaded.

It looks awesome in my book.

Games? Don't think there are ANY flat-shaded games released since hardware 3D acceleration became popular. Even software renderers texturemapped back then. Try disabling texturing in Quake2 and run it with just lightmaps...


*G*