Church elects its first gay bishop

[V3]

My "Church" (Lutheranism) rejects much of Catholicism because, in very simplistic terms, my church belives Catholicism in this day and age has rejected the bible.

Yes, that's a sad thing.

Edit:To exand on that, All different sects of Christians, belives in different interpretation on the Bible. All claim authorithy from the Bible. Don't like something, a new sect is formed, afterall they have the Bible, which is open to interpretation.

Schism existed from very early on in the Church, Jews and gentiles have their difference too. I just hope one day the Church will be united again.

My Church expressly gets its authority from the Bible.

Yes, nearly all of them are.

 

[epicstruggle]

hmm, as a hindu ill add my 2cents.

Id love to ask him (the priest/bishop in question) the following questions:

Should women be allowed to be priests? (currently allowed)
Should homosexuals be allowed to be priests? (currently in question)
Should a men or a women who practice pre-marital sex be allowed to be priests?
Should a men or a women who practices polygamy be allowed to be priests?
How about someone in a incestious relationship?

I wonder if he would say no to anyone of the above questions.

later,

 

[notAFanB]

Exactly, if you reject the Church, you have no basis what so ever. Like I said before, the Bible become meaningless, if you reject the Church.

that is not a neccessary conclusion. the only conclusion is if we/I/etc.. reject the Catholic Church then some of what is written may be rejected but we don't know what.

one questions did the individual works which eventually compiled in the NT exist in their current form which predate the formulation of the Catholic Church (unless of course you hold that the Church existed at the conception of Christ).

what about what was left out?

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

epicstruggle,

Good to hear from a different religion. =)

I personally think that anyone that has had pre-marital sex, incestuous relationships, practiced polygamy, or had homosexual sex SHOULD be allowed in the priesthood, but ONLY if they repent of their sins. After all we are all sinners, we all do ungodly things. My basic issue is that it sounds like the bishop in question is not acknowledging his sin, and not asking for forgiveness. (but I never asked him) =)

Dr. Ffreeze

 

[Natoma]

Even the New Testament was formed before the "church" existed. All of the books were written before the catholic church came to be.

Jesus and his apostles was already the Church, Jesus build the Church on himself and the apostles. So I don't know what you are talking about. You're seriously misled, I am sorry for that.

Ok we're talking about two different things then. When I put church into quotations, I was speaking about the catholic church, not the body of christ which is also "the church."

Even then, the old testament books already existed, as russ pointed out, mostly in the talmud, with a few other books/stories cobbled together later on. Who knows when.

 

[Natoma]

Uhm, actually the bible was formed before the "church" existed. You have heard of the old testament right? That did predate christ.

No, you're wrong, the Bible is collection of works, some of them in the old testament predate Christ, but still the Bible that most Christian have today was formed around 400 AD by the authority of the Church.

There are many Christians works that didn't get included into the Bible.

Wouldn't the church of 400AD be the catholic church? And if I'm not mistaken, the catholic church was created by Peter, who many catholics point to as the first Pope.

This is of course if you are referring to "the church" as the catholic church and not the body of christ church, which encompasses every christian religion.

There is some confusion there.

 

[Natoma]

Exactly, if you reject the Church, you have no basis what so ever. Like I said before, the Bible become meaningless, if you reject the Church.

that is not a neccessary conclusion. the only conclusion is if we/I/etc.. reject the Catholic Church then some of what is written may be rejected but we don't know what.

one questions did the individual works which eventually compiled in the NT exist in their current form which predate the formulation of the Catholic Church (unless of course you hold that the Church existed at the conception of Christ).

what about what was left out?

Yes that was my question. V3 is referring to the rejection of the church as making the bible lose all authority, and frankly I can't tell if he's referring to the Catholic Church or the Body of Christ "Church" which encompasses all christianity.

Oh, and all of the books of the NT predated the Catholic Church. The last book, Revelations, was writted between 100 and 200 AD.

As for the books that were left out of the bible, well, the book of Revelations specifically states that any and all works of Christianity, if removed or altered in any way, would automatically doom those who did it, and those who followed thereafter, to an eternity in hellfire, as that is an abomination to change god's word.

So all those catholics who rejected certain books of the bible and created the current bible sinned greatly in the eyes of god, according to revelation, and are now burning in hell.

That is, if you believe in this anyways.

 

[epicstruggle]

epicstruggle,

Good to hear from a different religion. =)

I personally think that anyone that has had pre-marital sex, incestuous relationships, practiced polygamy, or had homosexual sex SHOULD be allowed in the priesthood, but ONLY if they repent of their sins. After all we are all sinners, we all do ungodly things. My basic issue is that it sounds like the bishop in question is not acknowledging his sin, and not asking for forgiveness. (but I never asked him) =)

Dr. Ffreeze

, Yeah I didnt think he had repented and asked for forgiveness. I assume since he still is a homosexual relationship that he would not have anyproblems with the types of priests I mentioned earlier.

later,
epic

 

[V3]

Ok we're talking about two different things then. When I put church into quotations, I was speaking about the catholic church, not the body of christ which is also "the church."

If you know the history, than you should know that "the church" which you think is the body of christ, is the one today, you know as Catholic Church. Catholic Church is "the church". Though some might argued otherwise.

The church is catholic, because salvation is universal, for Jews and gentiles. Jews are first inline to inherit the kingdom of God, eventually salvation is for gentiles too, as you can see in Gospels and from the work of St Paul in NT.

So, at the time of the writing of those letters, the Church was already catholic.

Even then, the old testament books already existed, as russ pointed out, mostly in the talmud, with a few other books/stories cobbled together later on. Who knows when.

Wouldn't the church of 400AD be the catholic church?

Yes the church is the catholic church.

And if I'm not mistaken, the catholic church was created by Peter, who many catholics point to as the first Pope.

Catholic Church was created by Jesus Christ. Peter was given special duty to lead and care his flock. Jesus give this job personally to Peter after the resurrection. You can read that in John 21:15-17

21:15 Then when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these do?" He replied, "Yes, Lord, you know I love you." Jesus told him, "Feed my lambs."

21:16 Jesus said a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He replied, "Yes, Lord, you know I love you." Jesus told him, "Shepherd my sheep." 21:17 Jesus said a third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that Jesus asked him a third time, "Do you love me?" and said, "Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you." Jesus replied, "Feed my sheep.

This is of course if you are referring to "the church" as the catholic church and not the body of christ church, which encompasses every christian religion.

There is some confusion there.

I am sorry I confused you. To put it straight, the other Christian sects are not in full communion with the body of christ church. To put it bluntly, they're heretic and has broken away from the body of christ church which you call the catholic church.

When one broken away from the body of christ, they don't share the same belief anymore. That's why they have things such election of woman priest or the subject of this topic.

 

[V3]

So all those catholics who rejected certain books of the bible and created the current bible sinned greatly in the eyes of god, according to revelation, and are now burning in hell.

Now things are straighten out, the Catholic church formed the Bible.

A monk name Luther, took out some books from the Bible as well as split the Church into several hundreds denomination, you can find today.

The Catholic church just added the books that Luther took out back to the Protestant Bible.

But what we're talking is the Anglican. Anglican seperated from Catholic Church to formed the Church of England. As I stated above they're not in full communion with the body of Christ church.

 

[RussSchultz]

Or, from another viewpoint, the Catholic church has strayed from the teachings of the bible originally set down in ~400AD and Luther recognized this and has re-formed (as in formed again) the church in the image originally intended.

 

[V3]

Or, from another viewpoint, the Catholic church has strayed from the teachings of the bible originally set down in ~400AD and Luther recognized this and has re-formed (as in formed again) the church in the image originally intended.

And now several hundred years later, we have this great schism, due to sola scriptura, that Luther promulgated. That's not enough for you to see that sola scriptura is wrong ?

 

[notAFanB]

my final question.

how can you assert that the 'body of Christ' and the 'catholic church' are one and the same. that one led to the other.

please can you explain this in laymans terms without resorting to the bible (lest this become some type of quote fest). in otherwords what is the historical presentdent for this axiom?

 

[RussSchultz]

Or, from another viewpoint, the Catholic church has strayed from the teachings of the bible originally set down in ~400AD and Luther recognized this and has re-formed (as in formed again) the church in the image originally intended.

And now several hundred years later, we have this great schism, due to sola scriptura, that Luther promulgated. That's not enough for you to see that sola scriptura is wrong ?

Is not the moral behavior of Popes in the past not enough to show you that the inerrency of the papal proclamation wrong?

Is not the current popes doubling the population of saints not enough to show you that the inerrency of the papacy wrong? Is not his devotion to Mary and his support of the Marion movement to elevate her to supreme interdictor enough to show you that he's off his rocker and moving the church away from what God intended?

I'm sorry, but "you're not us, so you're wrong" doesn't go a long way to showing you're right. Not that I mind you holding a different opinion on religion, but your proclaimations of faith don't do a lot in the pursuasive department.

But, to address your assertion, I see no particular reason that the existance of a schism necessarily lends credence that Luther was wrong. It simply means that people still disagree. Perhaps that this schism still exists should suggest that his views were correct?

 

[V3]

how can you assert that the 'body of Christ' and the 'catholic church' are one and the same. that one led to the other.

please can you explain this in laymans terms without resorting to the bible (lest this become some type of quote fest). in otherwords what is the historical presentdent for this axiom?

'the Church' is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

The Church is One because Christ only established one church.

The Church is Holy not because all her members are holy but because her Founder (Christ) has given all the necessary means to make people holy.

The Church is Catholic because salvation is for Jews and gentiles, for all nations.

The Church is Apostolic because it goes back to the Twelve Apostles chosen by Christ Himself. The authority of Saint Peter in the Church has been passed down through the unbroken line of his successors.

No other Church has these marks. Only the Catholic Church has these marks.

 

[notAFanB]

The Church is Apostolic because it goes back to the Twelve Apostles chosen by Christ Himself. The authority of Saint Peter in the Church has been passed down through the unbroken line of his successors.

thank you, is there an historical reference to this line? (actually gonna have a lookee at this later).

 

[Joe DeFuria]

My "Church" (Lutheranism) rejects much of Catholicism because, in very simplistic terms, my church belives Catholicism in this day and age has rejected the bible.

Yes, that's a sad thing.

Yes, the Catholic Church rejecting the Bible is indeed a sad thing. That's why I abandoned it.

To exand on that, All different sects of Christians, belives in different interpretation on the Bible.

Correct, including Catholics.

 

[sonix666]

I don't quite understand how the Anglican Church gets around the fact that the Bible condemns homosexual acts. To repent your sins and ask forgiveness, you must first acknowledge them. For example: If I stated that I was a practicing adulterer, I would think that I would not be acknowledging that it was wrong. I would therefore not be asking for forgiveness.

The Bible does not condemns homosexual acts at all. Show me any paragraph where the text cannot be read with multiple meanings.

How can someone become a bishop when they don't acknowledge their sin, let alone ask for forgiveness?

I am myself homosexual and I am a believer. I am not a sinner, nor is this priest. Homosexuality is a well known phenomena in both the human and animal world. 10% of all humans (both women and men) are homoseksual. This percentage might be even much higher if it was so generally accepted that people at young ages can have their coming out. Surely, you don't want to propose that this 10% of humanity is sinning because they are *born* gay?

To quote the text from the Amnesty International boat in the Gay Parade in Amsterdam (The Netherlands):

"Illegal in 80 countries. Gay rights are human rights."

Hopefully some day people will learn and to respect eachother for what they are and how they were born.

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

sonix666,

Surely, you don't want to propose that this 10% of humanity is sinning because they are *born* gay?

My wants and desires have nothing to do with what I belive my faith tells me.

By the way 100% of humanity is sinning. For example: I am born with lust in my heart. I am sinning, and I was born that way. What of it?

Dr. Ffreeze

 

[zurich]

Sonix,

I do believe thou hast stirred ze shit

Pretty much any issue pertaining to homosexuality has been beaten to death on this board... just a head's up!