carmack on Cg, P10 and apology to Matrox about DM

[BenM]

Anytime you want to step up to the plate and submit your resume, let me know.

Put up or shut up.

I don't have to be in the league of Steven Spielberg or Homer to tell if a movie or book is bad.

If he's got a valid beef with the drivers, then he can obviously tell there is a flaw somewhere. Instead of having to put up or shut up, he should be listened to. Overall, it seems that ATI has been listening.

Now if only Creative would....

 

[Ty]

]Makes you wonder why ATi cant find some really quality driver developers...

Seems like others can.

Judging by the reaction of the latest 8500 drivers I think they've gotten WAY better.

 

[OpenGL guy]

If he's got a valid beef with the drivers, then he can obviously tell there is a flaw somewhere. Instead of having to put up or shut up, he should be listened to. Overall, it seems that ATI has been listening.

Now if only Creative would....

If Carmack had a problem, then it's been resolved. However, for Hellbinder to come here and say that ATI needs to hire "quality" developers, is an insult, especially when he has no clue about the topic. For one thing, he has no idea what went on between ATI, id or 3dlabs, yet he thinks that ATI needs better engineers?

Sorry, but you are not even in a position to criticize anything regarding this topic: The product is not released, Doom 3 is not released, you have not been in contact with ATI, 3dlabs or id. How can you be aware of any possible issues?

Case closed.

 

[Rasmoo]

Could someone who is more into these things please explain the bearing this comment has on current alternatives?

That comment was of particular interest to me too. Even with zilcho knowledge of the current HLSL's it makes sense to hide resource limits within the compiler/translator (or whatever the appropriate term is).

How about a B3D feature on HLSL's?

Edit: The bjorn3d cg article was a good start.

 

[Dave Baumann]

An answer to that question has already been written here:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=1407&forum=9

How about a B3D feature on HLSL's?

We're thinking about it / working on it. If we were to do one it wouldn't be limited to Cg but rather an overview of whats coming up and opinions from various sides. Rev has already canvased a few developers from the CG front and I'm need to fire off a few mails to some of the hardware vendors.

 

[pascal]

If he's got a valid beef with the drivers, then he can obviously tell there is a flaw somewhere. Instead of having to put up or shut up, he should be listened to. Overall, it seems that ATI has been listening.

Now if only Creative would....

If Carmack had a problem, then it's been resolved. However, for Hellbinder to come here and say that ATI needs to hire "quality" developers, is an insult, especially when he has no clue about the topic. For one thing, he has no idea what went on between ATI, id or 3dlabs, yet he thinks that ATI needs better engineers?

Sorry, but you are not even in a position to criticize anything regarding this topic: The product is not released, Doom 3 is not released, you have not been in contact with ATI, 3dlabs or id. How can you be aware of any possible issues?

Case closed.

First, I dont think hellbinder had intention to insult anyone at ATI, then calm down. He probably was thinking loud.

Second, IMHO the case is not closed. We have information directlly from JC himself. 3DLabs performed very well from quality standpoint, in fact it was very encouraging for him.

This is not the first developer who blame ATI´s drivers for problems. I my consumer opinion ATI need to improve its relation with software developers and improve the drivers development and test.

I have to go now. I will come back maybe tomorrow

 

[Dave Baumann]

Second, IMHO the case is not closed. We have information directlly from JC himself. 3DLabs performed very well from quality standpoint, in fact it was very encouraging for him.

I don't there is much in the way of a comparison to be made here as, as I said earlier, the board given to JC (being only a week ago) was pretty much a final board. As JC said about 8500 and also the R300 he's used these were both very beta boards and drivers so they are much more likely to be in a 'raw' condition.

 

[andypski]

First, I dont think hellbinder had intention to insult anyone at ATI, then calm down. He probably was thinking loud.

I'm sure his intention wasn't to insult every driver developer at ATI with his comment (since he probably doesn't know them all...) but implicitly that's what he did anyway. Thinking out loud is all very well, but if you thought out loud like that in a room full of ATI driver engineers I suspect that they might get quite upset...

I've always thought that one of the advantages of having to type things out is that it allows you to think and edit (unless you can type really, REALLY fast...)

Cheers
- Andy.

 

[LittlePenny]

For one thing, he has no idea what went on between ATI, id or 3dlabs, yet he thinks that ATI needs better engineers?

Well, I was serious with my resume offering. But, I still need to devote more time to adding better features to my resume(aka OpenGL and DX) before whoring myself out to any vid card company that will take me.

 

[Username]

Is it not painfully obvious what company he's referring to? Is there a company out there who has been aggressively pursuing "Toy Story Level" animation for the past few years? Is there a company out there who has been aggressively working with software vendors to get thier shading language packed into thier products (including 3DSMax, Maya, and even Renderman). Is there a company out there that has actually been using cinematic demos to show the progress toward this goal?

Again, the answer is painfully clear.

I got my last post on this board deleted, ostensibly for saying that Parhelia was going to be a dog, and end up being slower than the GeForce 4 series. I said that the Parhelia was a card with no market, being priced to high based on performance to be a high end card, and not offering anything compelling enough 2D wise to justify its purchase. I think all but the most ardent apologist can agree that has come to pass.

In that post I also said the R300 was not going to be considerably faster than the GeForce 4 series, and when the NV30 drops, its going to completely annihilate the R300. Over the next year and a half, Nvidia's products are actually going to take them in a direction directly competing for the entire hardware end of the PC.

The 3D wars are uninteresting, because honestly they ended two years ago. When a company has a technically inferior product, sells it for twice the margin thier nearest competitor does, and STILL gains marketshare, I think the market is playing out the inevitable. A look at quarterly reports shows the grizly details of this.

 

[Jazz]

Is it not painfully obvious what company he's referring to? Is there a company out there who has been aggressively pursuing "Toy Story Level" animation for the past few years? Is there a company out there who has been aggressively working with software vendors to get thier shading language packed into thier products (including 3DSMax, Maya, and even Renderman). Is there a company out there that has actually been using cinematic demos to show the progress toward this goal?

Again, the answer is painfully clear.

I got my last post on this board deleted, ostensibly for saying that Parhelia was going to be a dog, and end up being slower than the GeForce 4 series. I said that the Parhelia was a card with no market, being priced to high based on performance to be a high end card, and not offering anything compelling enough 2D wise to justify its purchase. I think all but the most ardent apologist can agree that has come to pass.

In that post I also said the R300 was not going to be considerably faster than the GeForce 4 series, and when the NV30 drops, its going to completely annihilate the R300. Over the next year and a half, Nvidia's products are actually going to take them in a direction directly competing for the entire hardware end of the PC.

The 3D wars are uninteresting, because honestly they ended two years ago. When a company has a technically inferior product, sells it for twice the margin thier nearest competitor does, and STILL gains marketshare, I think the market is playing out the inevitable. A look at quarterly reports shows the grizly details of this.

 

[jvd]

Is it not painfully obvious what company he's referring to? Is there a company out there who has been aggressively pursuing "Toy Story Level" animation for the past few years? Is there a company out there who has been aggressively working with software vendors to get thier shading language packed into thier products (including 3DSMax, Maya, and even Renderman). Is there a company out there that has actually been using cinematic demos to show the progress toward this goal?

Again, the answer is painfully clear.

I got my last post on this board deleted, ostensibly for saying that Parhelia was going to be a dog, and end up being slower than the GeForce 4 series. I said that the Parhelia was a card with no market, being priced to high based on performance to be a high end card, and not offering anything compelling enough 2D wise to justify its purchase. I think all but the most ardent apologist can agree that has come to pass.

In that post I also said the R300 was not going to be considerably faster than the GeForce 4 series, and when the NV30 drops, its going to completely annihilate the R300. Over the next year and a half, Nvidia's products are actually going to take them in a direction directly competing for the entire hardware end of the PC.

The 3D wars are uninteresting, because honestly they ended two years ago. When a company has a technically inferior product, sells it for twice the margin thier nearest competitor does, and STILL gains marketshare, I think the market is playing out the inevitable. A look at quarterly reports shows the grizly details of this.

I knew it 3dfx will rise from the dead.. heh oh wait you mean nvidia ? well how are they going to get toy story graphics when they can't make an image that looks better than my radeon ?

 

[ben6]

While I agree that there's more going on at NVIDIA than merely 3d and what we've seen (mobile, chipsets etc) , I'm not willing to go into what I think that is and I think you're stretching quite a bit. They've more than doubled their workforce since last year (Dan Vivoli at a recent NASDAQ100 conference) , and they're setting up the framework for somethhing I'm sure. But we'll just have to wait and see, and it probably isn't something that'll be here this upcoming year....

 

[Doomtrooper]

Is it not painfully obvious what company he's referring to? Is there a company out there who has been aggressively pursuing "Toy Story Level" animation for the past few years? Is there a company out there who has been aggressively working with software vendors to get thier shading language packed into thier products (including 3DSMax, Maya, and even Renderman). Is there a company out there that has actually been using cinematic demos to show the progress toward this goal?

Again, the answer is painfully clear.

 

[Dave Baumann]

As the avialable hardware sits right now, technically speaking 3Dlabs are actually the closest to doing it. Their goal is to have 3MB Renderman (like) Shaders compiling under OpenGL 2 and running on P10 hardware, which they are not that far away from. When the former Integraph team of 3Dlabs take hold of this architecture and start ramping up for serious scalability...

 

[ben6]

Yep that's what I remember on your report on 3DLabs. It's going to be interesting this fall/winter We've already seen the Parhelia and P10, I wonder what NV30/R300 will really bring to the picture . BTW I'm hearing a interesting rumor from our friends up north (sorry not saying which company all I'm saying is I'm in LA CA in the USA which could mean any of a number of companies )

EDIT: whoops that's not juicy enough . I'm hearing about some company supporting something that another company is championing that we were wondering if any other company is going to support.

 

[Doomtrooper]

This thread is just plain funny....

 

[elimc]

Don't you work for ATI, Hellbinder? Or am I thinking of a different Hellbinder?

 

[TruthSpinner]

Considering some NVidia CEOs statement about the significance of their next contribution to the industry I strongly believe that they are the ones that JC are talking about.

As I find NVidia's business ethics as appaling as that of Microsoft I'd wish it was not so. I really hope that the 3D-labs technology might be strong enough or that ATI will reveal a radically new design, but I find it unlikely.

Or perhaps Rendition IS actually making a comeback

 

[LittlePenny]

BTW I'm hearing a interesting rumor from our friends up north (sorry not saying which company all I'm saying is I'm in LA CA in the USA which could mean any of a number of companies )

Well if Santa Claus is entering into the 3d market I hope he is getting a better welcome than Matrox's return. AND do not give me any of that crap Santa is from Finland!