Yeah, at that point it'll just be an arm and a foot. 
I remember DVD's rollout... Ugh. -_- Just going to be worse.
I remember DVD's rollout... Ugh. -_- Just going to be worse.
BR/HD-DVD Thread
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PC-Engine said:Official general HD DVD logo.
Recycling not only factories, but even its logo?
It carries S-VHS feel, rather than next-gen media that stimulate consumers to buy a new player.
For a while HD-DVD disc will be shipped as a double-layer [HD-DVD + DVD] disc playable on existing DVD player - it's interesting to see how it gains ground before something significant like PS3 launch.
PC-Engine, did you read the Dolby's official release.PC-Engine said:cthellis42 said:So how many weeks do you give Blu-Ray before they announce another codec to close up that gap too?
You mean copying every move the DVD Forum makes?
I really wonder why the BDA always waits for the DVD Forum's decisions on codecs before they finalize theirs.
That's really all they can do now since their antics of trying to stifle the DVD Forum voting process has been nullified.
Anyhow the BRD audio codecs have already been decided on awhile ago AFAIK and from what I've heard the BDA are sticking with the normal DD and DTS.
I really don't see why you think the BR is going to "copy" HD-DVD here.Dolby Laboratories said:
They just have different timetables in announcements, and different blueprints for standards that they want to be included as mandatory.
HD-DVD has decided that DD+ and MLP Lossless are mandatory formats for HD-HVD, doesn't that mean that every HD-DVD disc must have both of those formats. Just like Dolby Digital is on every DVD now, and DTS (+other formats) can be included if wanted.
BR has decided that Dolby Digital is the mandatory format, like currently in DVD's. There's nothing stopping film studios including DD+ and MLP Lossless if they want.
But neither is there nothing stopping studios not to include DD+ and MLP Lossless, if they think there is no need for them. I can see many TV series still including plain old Dolby Digital, and I'm sure not every studio is too happy with being forced to remaster exsisting soundtracks to DD+ and MLP Lossless (though it might be relatively painless as it's just varying the compression).
Forcing DD+ and MLP Lossless is just fragmenting the market, a bit like Superbit DVD's
Yes it's called smart manufacturing and smart marketing. Why change it to something the masses wouldn't be able to recognize just so it would look "cool"?
There were no S-VHS movies btw. S-VHS is mainly a recording/playback enhancement.
I don't expect BR in PS3 to be really significant with regards to adoption. This isn't DVD vs VHS. It's HD DVD vs BRD. As long as the studios release films on HD DVD it would be a close and long battle. The PC industry would pick up HD DVD really fast if it's priced right. I'd expect a hardware HD DVD decoder card to cost about $50 so you won't have to have a powerful PC to watch HD DVD movies.
The dual mode HD DVD/DVD disc is an interesting idea btw.
How would it fragment the market? HD DVD is a whole different format unlike Superbit. DD Enhanced is also backwards compatible with DD. Also keep in mind that to listen to the DD Ehanced audio track you need to have DD+ decoding capability in the player. Since BRD sticks with DD you won't be able to listen to the DD+ audio track therefore it makes no sense for studios to include them in BRD.
I meant forcing DD+ and MLP lossless are going to fragment the next gen high definition DVD marketPC-Engine said:
It is comparable to Superbit, as SB and DD+ are both compatible with old hardware, and both are just higher bitrate versions.
DD+ does not need new decoders in players or AV gear, as it is just DD with higher bitrate (approaching dts bitrates?). What is DD Enhanced?
DD+ can have some DD+10.1 format in the future, just like DD has evolved from 5.1 to 6.1...
BR doesn't "stick" with DD, it has the possibility for studios to include DD+ or any other format, it's just that it also has to include Dolby Digital.
It has "made sense to studios" to include dts in many current dvd's, there's nothing stopping the studios including DD+ or MLP lossless if there is demand for them. Who knows, if DD+ is just reaching the same bitrates as dts is today, then they may not see it is worth including in addition to DD and dts.
DD+ = DD Plus = DD Enhanced just different code names.
Also DD+ is not higher bitrate. It's same audio quality at lower bitrate analogous to VC-9. Unlike video where you can immediately see an improvement in a high resolution image, audio is already near the limits of human hearing. Anyhow, from what I understand DD+ native track cannot be decoded by standard DD decoders. When decoding using conventional DD decoders it falls back to DD the same way DPLII falls back to Dolby Surround when you don't have a DPLII decoder.
Also DD+ is not higher bitrate. It's same audio quality at lower bitrate analogous to VC-9. Unlike video where you can immediately see an improvement in a high resolution image, audio is already near the limits of human hearing. Anyhow, from what I understand DD+ native track cannot be decoded by standard DD decoders. When decoding using conventional DD decoders it falls back to DD the same way DPLII falls back to Dolby Surround when you don't have a DPLII decoder.
So it is not only going to be fragmenting the future high definition dvd market, but also the AV gear market
Well I did say that tongue-in-cheek as I knew you would be amused, but isn't this more a matter of scheduling and regular business practices than anything else?PC-Engine said:You mean copying every move the DVD Forum makes?
As you've been saying all along, you expect HD-DVD content to be around the corner and on the market earlier than Blu-Ray, but of course if their timetable and announcements are similarly behind, this is telling? (Meanwhile, I imagine it's solid business practice to follow the "if you CAN wait and use it to your advantage, you SHOULD" train of thought.)
And of course though the market eternally operates similarly--"leeching ideas" to bring out one's own product and notable steps spurring similar moves from other to remain competitve and every level in-between, above, and around--if certain parties do it it's "laughable" or "contemptible," but for so many others it's just "the way the market works." I'm sure one's personal biases might cause one to think the former, but surely people of reason wouldn't think so shallowly, would they?
And in the meanwhile, there could well be a lot of talking going on between the two standards to avoid a codec war and forcing content providers to choose sides, and instead work in at least a bit of coordination to more resemble the multiple DVD formats and keep open the possibility of dual-format devices. (Especially for PC's, who like to encorporate everything.) I'm sure neither would be thrilled with a "one must live and one must die" scenario. (Or at least "one must triumph over Market X, Y, or Z and the other must crash and burn.")
In the OTHER "meanwhile," I don't think anyone has actually confirmed "full specifications" yet--they're just in an advancing process of stating which codecs will be mandatory. They may have their own unique features on that front still--just with common ground they share to keep things simple.
Have anything more specific on the technical and "what it means" aspects of this?one said:
I think DD+ works like MP3 pro, ie it must use some form of "Spectral Band Replication" But just like mp3 pro it can be decoded with any normal mp3/dd decoder, of course to get the SBR you'll need a new decoder than can do the sub band decoding??? I'm suspecting this is what DD+ is all about.
From the BluRay website:
LPCM:
8 Channels @ up to 96 Khz/24 bit or
6 Channels @ up to 196 Khz/24 bit
Dolby Digital @ 640 kbit
DTS @ 1536 kbit (just like laserdiscs!)
DTS ++ TBC
7.1 24 bit 196 khz (wow!)
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/2b_bdrom_audiovisualapplication-12841.pdf
LPCM:
8 Channels @ up to 96 Khz/24 bit or
6 Channels @ up to 196 Khz/24 bit
Dolby Digital @ 640 kbit
DTS @ 1536 kbit (just like laserdiscs!)
DTS ++ TBC
7.1 24 bit 196 khz (wow!)
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/downloadablefile/2b_bdrom_audiovisualapplication-12841.pdf
rabidrabbit said:So it is not only going to be fragmenting the future high definition dvd market, but also the AV gear market
Not necessarily. You'll need a HDTV to view the content sure, that's expected in BRD too. You won't need to have a DD+ capable receiver to listen to the regular DD or DTS tracks. Ultimately you have to get a new TV, player, and disc anyway so where's the problem?
mozmo said:
I think so too.
HD DVD supports all of that in addition to DD Plus.
PC-Engine said:-tkf- said:
...but there aren't 29 million PS2s hooked up to HDTVs...in other words who's going to be buying BRD movies?
It'll work like this - in near future, you'll get simultaneous release of the same titles in DVD and BD, and you have PS3 in home but don't have HDTV. When BD version costs say $40 and DVD version $30, which do you buy?
PC-Engine said:
Definately, but that won't stop people from buying BlueRay movies. Most people don't know the difference between a VHS and a DVD in terms of IQ, they only adopted DVDs cause they're fashionable, you don't have to rewind them, they're easy, and they're shiny discs.
We'll see what happens.
There will be BlueRay/HDDVD versions of movies with a lot more bonus material than the originals, complete TV series on single discs.. The potential is there.
I'm not too optimistic, but many people without HDTV will fall for it. Or push them to buy a HDTV. The rest will just wait.
KnightBreed
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From your very own link, DTS++ Lossless is optional for HD DVD. The folks at AVS seem to think Lossless DTS++ will be mandatory for Blu-ray, though the PDF linked above doesn't really confirm/deny which version will be required.PC-Engine said:
Those specs were posted to Blu-ray's website earlier this week. Up until yesterday we didn't know HD DVD was using DTS ++ (in either form). The notion that Blu-ray is waiting for HD DVD to release their specs just to trump them is ridiculous.
The only worthwhile audio codec Blu-ray needs that HD DVD has is MLP. The PDF at Blu-ray's site says that other audio codecs are still under investigation, so there is still hope. I wouldn't lose any sleep if they choose not to adobt MLP as I'm sure lossless DTS++ is sufficient. I'm personally not anxious for DD Plus support as there isn't really much the codec offers that Blu-ray needs. Also, I curious to see how many studios choose to encode in uncompressed LPCM given the lower capacity of HD DVD media.
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