Bizzarre admit: We lied about 80,000 per car Polygons

nurbs are quad patches (with implicit UVs) defined by control points.
Nurbs are more a pain than an advantage in realtime.(eg:a sphere is a special case of cylynder...)
you can't UV texture them (uvs are implicit 0-1 on the patch)
Realtime stitching of patches together(sew continuity and tangeancy) requires the same amount of control points between the patches ,then ,simple surfaces will inherit complexity (quantity of control points) from the more complex ones (eg :from nostril to cheek) :this leads to overkill triangulation and very poor control on geometry sampling.
Add to that the fact tha some modeling can't be achieved without 'negative' nurbs (called triming :)

frankly ,except for surfaces of revolution, nurbs are not worth it .even if it was easy to model with.
 
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c0_re said:
LOL it's hilarious I wonder how many poeple were about ready to come into this thread with a I told you so attitude about PGR3. 100,000 is pretty impressiv especially they are deformable(well kinda)

frankly , i was more about :" ok ,now we can have our 140k dragon ? " :)
 
e.g. the slides I have seen and the devs who have talked here the problem with the consoles in relation to geometry is not the GPUs but the memory footprint and bandwidth large meshes consume. Xenos and RSX can chew through geometry pretty well, the issue is having dozens of large objects. A racing game with 8 cars max and a fairly direct landscape is fairly controlled. Hundreds of simular dragons with LOD is fairly controlled.

When people start doing procedurally generated geometry I think we will see the poly count go up a bit. IMO of course.
 
Qroach said:
Nurbs are always converted to polygons before rendeirng anyway. It's basically the work flow when using nurbs. it takes a lot of planning to make sure you end up with the right number spans on a patch.

It's a bit different actually. There are basically two ways to model with NURBS.

The first is to lay out curves and build up most of the basic surfaces from them through several possible methods (revolve, loft, boundary etc). The resulting surfaces are then used as a basis for other surfaces generated procedurally; like, you can create rounded corners, or blends between two surfaces, and so on. You can also use trimming; drawing a curve on a surface and deleting the inside/outside area to make a hole or a random outlined surface.
Surfaces can be joined together even if the number of CVs is not the same on the two sides, because the software works with the actual surface itself. You can imagine how much computation this requres... You can make it easier if you match the CVs though :) There are ways to 'rebuild' the underlying structure and change the number of CVs on surfaces while keeping the shape as much as possible.
So by using the math behind NURBS, you can create very complex surfaces, and even go back and change it with the underlying construction history in most modeling/CAD packages. But this is a mathematical representation of the surface, so its more suited to the CAD industry. Complex surfaces are very complex indeed, and have a lot of highly inefficient areas, zillions of control vertices, and calculation-intensive dependent surfaces (above mentioned blends, rounds etc). So you can use this data to drive robots to sculpt out the surface from steel or whatever and go straight to fabrication. But it's far too complex for realtime display, and you don't need its precision in a game or a movie anyway. When you tesselate this surface into polygons, you'll get a whole lot more of them than required, so it's a low efficiency, very precise results approach.

Here's a tutorial for modeling a car with NURBS. Keep in mind that its in no way as precise as the model that could be used to fabricate the actual chassis, and still its very work intensive...
http://67.15.36.49/team/Tutorials/julian_sarmiento_carmod/carmodel_part1_01.asp


The other method is the one mentioned here, using quadratic NURBS patches to build a surface and stitching them together at their edges. The problem is that the stitching is only virtual as you'll still have individual patches - but the software will try to maintain surface continuity and tangency at the edges between them. Still, a multipatch surface can crack, especially when deformed with a skeleton, and using displacements on it; not to mention the calculation time to keep the stitching.
And it takes a lot of skill and extra work to build a good NURBS patch model, so a lot of time will be spent on technical stuff instead of the actual artistic part of modeling. Then there are the UV problems - you can either use one texture per patch (!), multiplied if you want normal/spec/whatever maps (!), or you can spend some more calculation time on projections for the mapping. Not to mention that your textures will be distorted, which you can only compensate by using a 3D paint package that supports NURBS (not too cheap).


Polygons/subdivs are a lot friendlier altogether, but a lot less precise as well. And decades of research have created a wide set of NURBS modeling tools to build hard surfaces (that is, man-made objects). Still, I can't see NURBS cars in games in the future...
 
Laa-Yosh said:
It's a bit different actually. There are basically two ways to model with NURBS.

The first is to lay out curves and build up most of the basic surfaces from them through several possible methods (revolve, loft, boundary etc). The resulting surfaces are then used as a basis for other surfaces generated procedurally; like, you can create rounded corners, or blends between two surfaces, and so on. You can also use trimming; drawing a curve on a surface and deleting the inside/outside area to make a hole or a random outlined surface.
Surfaces can be joined together even if the number of CVs is not the same on the two sides, because the software works with the actual surface itself. You can imagine how much computation this requres... You can make it easier if you match the CVs though :) There are ways to 'rebuild' the underlying structure and change the number of CVs on surfaces while keeping the shape as much as possible.
So by using the math behind NURBS, you can create very complex surfaces, and even go back and change it with the underlying construction history in most modeling/CAD packages. But this is a mathematical representation of the surface, so its more suited to the CAD industry. Complex surfaces are very complex indeed, and have a lot of highly inefficient areas, zillions of control vertices, and calculation-intensive dependent surfaces (above mentioned blends, rounds etc). So you can use this data to drive robots to sculpt out the surface from steel or whatever and go straight to fabrication. But it's far too complex for realtime display, and you don't need its precision in a game or a movie anyway. When you tesselate this surface into polygons, you'll get a whole lot more of them than required, so it's a low efficiency, very precise results approach.

Here's a tutorial for modeling a car with NURBS. Keep in mind that its in no way as precise as the model that could be used to fabricate the actual chassis, and still its very work intensive...
http://67.15.36.49/team/Tutorials/julian_sarmiento_carmod/carmodel_part1_01.asp


The other method is the one mentioned here, using quadratic NURBS patches to build a surface and stitching them together at their edges. The problem is that the stitching is only virtual as you'll still have individual patches - but the software will try to maintain surface continuity and tangency at the edges between them. Still, a multipatch surface can crack, especially when deformed with a skeleton, and using displacements on it; not to mention the calculation time to keep the stitching.
And it takes a lot of skill and extra work to build a good NURBS patch model, so a lot of time will be spent on technical stuff instead of the actual artistic part of modeling. Then there are the UV problems - you can either use one texture per patch (!), multiplied if you want normal/spec/whatever maps (!), or you can spend some more calculation time on projections for the mapping. Not to mention that your textures will be distorted, which you can only compensate by using a 3D paint package that supports NURBS (not too cheap).


Polygons/subdivs are a lot friendlier altogether, but a lot less precise as well. And decades of research have created a wide set of NURBS modeling tools to build hard surfaces (that is, man-made objects). Still, I can't see NURBS cars in games in the future...


Not to mention Nurbs suck for animation. Sub divisions for the WIN!!! But Nurbs in cars could work well if they had no damage. Don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but you could do a character model in Nurbs, and then "switch" the final model to Sub Divisions, so the developers would in fact be using nurbs in the devlopment process, that's what originated the Killzone and Nurbs rumours. Too bad there's still no tools to use Sub divisions effectivelly in the environments.
 
lol!!!

that was a very amusing read :)

And it's cool that the detail invested on the game actually shows!!!

atleast in the pics and movies/demo that's been leaked on the net.
 
LunchBox said:
lol!!!

that was a very amusing read :)

And it's cool that the detail invested on the game actually shows!!!

atleast in the pics and movies/demo that's been leaked on the net.

Hey LunchBox can you remember when people said that it was useless to have 80,000 polys for a car? Or how about why they made the buildings so detailed? I can and I think that Bizarre made a great decision to go full max. I still think that they should push the date back if they can't get 60 fps. Better to have a superior product late than an underweming one early and quick.
 
mckmas8808 said:
Hey LunchBox can you remember when people said that it was useless to have 80,000 polys for a car? Or how about why they made the buildings so detailed? I can and I think that Bizarre made a great decision to go full max. I still think that they should push the date back if they can't get 60 fps. Better to have a superior product late than an underweming one early and quick.

very true :)
 
i guess it can't be helped on the scheduling of things...

it's an expected killer app launch title...

as long as it runs stable is what everyone is hoping for right now :)

given the time constraints, it's quite impressive on what they've showed so far :)

but i totally agree on releasing a polished gem of a title than an adequate one :)
 
mckmas8808 said:
Better to have a superior product late than an underweming one early and quick.
Every indication is that it is not only supior to every other 360 racer, but also has a great sense of speed. Basically if you liked PGR1/PGR2 you should like PGR3. Similar play style, just more features and more detail (physics and world) and better graphics. All the reviews indicate that.

So a delay would be to get the jump from 30fps locked to 60fps, not necessarily make it a "superior product". The last IGN update noted that they are in between 30 and 60 with the recent build and are still hoping to make 60fps but not guarantees. Personally, I doubt they will do it. Getting final dev kits in Augest was just too late. But the fact it is a solid 30fps, they still think 60fps is attainable, especially with more time, boads well for future games.

I would like 60fps like everyone else but I am not sure being a rock solid 30fps with HDR and motion blurr automatically makes it "not superior". Like any game it will turn off some fans, and others wont care. As SK recently said they were dissappointed that the casual consumer could give a rip whether their games were 60fps. So they have decided to go the 30fps route with more eye candy.

If RR6 outsells PGR3, and RR6 is 60fps and PGR3 is 30fps, we will get a good sense of where most gamers are. The nice thing is, at launch, you can choose a 60fps racer if you want one. It is there if it is that important. It is very difficult to make all gamers happy with 1 title. That is why there are hundreds of games on a platform while the average gamer only buys 7-10 games during the entire gen. That is pretty amazing stat when you consider a console may get well in excess to 1,000 titles or more.
 
LunchBox said:
but i totally agree on releasing a polished gem of a title than an adequate one :)
There are a number of clunkers that need to be delayed. Ubi did good in delaying GR3. I have a feeling THQ's The Outfit may get delayed based on some recent comments.

I think we would all agree that a delayed title that goes from being a 6.0-7.0 to being a 8.0-8.5 is a good move for gamers. While that may not always be great for sales, I think in the long run GOOD games sell well, and that if you miss November hitting the SLOOOOOW January-July period can be a good move too. If you are the best title released in a 1-3 month span you could get a LOT of pub and previews, and even better gain some momentum for the holiday season.

Far worse things can happen... like releasing a crappy product on release day and competing against a dozen 8.0-9.0 titles.
 
I think its necessary that PGR3 is a launch title. There is no title that screams "next gen" as much as PGR3, IMO. Push it out and follow up with a polished Forza in a year or so :p
 
Acert93 said:
If RR6 outsells PGR3, and RR6 is 60fps and PGR3 is 30fps, we will get a good sense of where most gamers are. The nice thing is, at launch, you can choose a 60fps racer if you want one. It is there if it is that important. It is very difficult to make all gamers happy with 1 title. That is why there are hundreds of games on a platform while the average gamer only buys 7-10 games during the entire gen. That is pretty amazing stat when you consider a console may get well in excess to 1,000 titles or more.
I don't think it's reasonable to assume 30fps or 60fps would be the major deciding factor when people choose whether to buy PGR3 or RR6.
They are very different games, even though they are both racers. RR6 is much more "arcade" with fantasy cars and fantasy handling.
I don't see it ever reaching as big an audience as a game that has real life cars, environments and controls that are more realistic and easier to approach.
 
therealskywolf said:
Don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but you could do a character model in Nurbs, and then "switch" the final model to Sub Divisions, so the developers would in fact be using nurbs in the devlopment process, that's what originated the Killzone and Nurbs rumours.

There's no reason in doing that - modeling in NURBS is so much harder and more time consuming then using polygons, that you'd win nothing this way... Also, this conversion is really not that complex, you basically turn every CV into a polymesh vertex and that's all.
 
note :when i said nurbs patches need matching cv control point ,i was talking about its realtime application where you can't really afford infinte precision surface definition.(they had a fullrealtime nurb engine 4-5 years ago wher i worked -worse idea ever)
 
in fact we do NOT have 80,000 polygons on average per car. It's actually closer to 96,000...

I assume then they are working with 60 fps, otherwise they wouldn't go as high in polycount, would they?
 
Neme said:
I assume then they are working with 60 fps, otherwise they wouldn't go as high in polycount, would they?

You mean 30fps? They are going for "stable 30fps" like all PGR games.

in fact we do NOT have 80,000 polygons on average per car. It's actually closer to 96,000...

LYING BASTARDS!!!! ;)
 
london-boy said:
You mean 30fps? They are going for "stable 30fps" like all PGR games.

PGR1 was 60fps though. Also, they were shooting for 60 with PGR3 as well, we're yet to see if the succeed ...
 
london-boy said:
I'm pretty sure all PGR games are 30fps but i stand to be corrected.

PGR1 was 60fps, PGR2 was 30fps. I'm not to bothered if its 30fps as PGR2 was by far the best racing game last gen and was a 30fps title.
 
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