Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[Shifty Geezer]

The gdk they are working with is not the final kit for either machine and XseX is currently ahead in terms of sheer power. Sonys tool set is much more complete and refined.

That makes no sense to me The toolset for MS should be a progression of their existing toolset, which leads back, I'm guessing, to XB360. Same tools they have for development the world over, just with different APIs, only XBSX is using DX12. What tools are lacking?

I take the lead character out into a hallway and two enemies rush into the room shooting and moving in what appears to be a tactical pattern. "Is this fucking guy shooting at me while the other guy is trying to circle around to flank me?" he laughs again. "Yep, suppressive fire."

This won't last. Imaging Uncharted or whatever where the miltary trained personnel actual behave like competently trained military personnel! It'd be alright in a bot match versus multiplayer for training etc. but one can only win one against many if the many are utterly clueless (excluding leet players)/

 

[fehu]

?

If we take this for true, and that this is some partially defective Series X soc, we are saying that Series X will use Zen3, that's not have been presented yet.

 

[AbsoluteBeginner]

Soo...whats the status of February meeting we were promised by Klee? Or Osiris "fortnight"?

And no, dont tell me it was cancelled duo to Coronavirus, because certainly if that was the case, much more relevant people in industry would know about it and spill the beans then these two.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

That makes no sense to me The toolset for MS should be a progression of their existing toolset, which leads back, I'm guessing, to XB360. Same tools they have for development the world over, just with different APIs, only XBSX is using DX12. What tools are lacking?

Some sub-systems are completely new:
- Real-time Raytracing (DXR exists but it doesn't mean it can't be improved upon)
- Audio Wavetracing (possibly using hardware RT?)
- Storage, possibly with the use of memory buffers that aren't completely transparent to the developers.

This is not the first time we've seen mention of the PS5 having a more mature toolset, or being preferable to work on. We know the V-shaped devkits were in dev hands as far back as April 2019. We didn't get any similar news from Microsoft's side.

I don't think this would result in better or better looking games for the PS5 though. It just means the developers need to spend extra time on SeriesX during the first wave of games or so.

This won't last. Imaging Uncharted or whatever where the miltary trained personnel actual behave like competently trained military personnel! It'd be alright in a bot match versus multiplayer for training etc. but one can only win one against many if the many are utterly clueless (excluding leet players)/

What's your experience with Rainbow 6 games Shifty?
You comparing it to Uncharted makes me think you're a bit off on what to expect on that kind of game.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What's your experience with Rainbow 6 games Shifty?
You comparing it to Uncharted makes me think you're a bit off on what to expect on that kind of game.

I'm only talking general terms about next-gen AI. Everything in that report is next-gen goodness - graphics, physical environment changes, etc. Suggesting next-gen AI will also be of the sort implied is missing a notable part of why it isn't like that in the first place.

 

[AlNom]

Also a description of what appears to be the next Rainbow Six:

Hm. So R6S runs at 1728p on OneX. Linear scaling would suggest 1.56x power needed to hit 4K & up to 1.5x for the framerate, though surely they're ramping up the renderer in other ways. I don't recall what DF measured of the framerates on Scorpio/Neo though.

 

[Jay]

That makes no sense to me The toolset for MS should be a progression of their existing toolset, which leads back, I'm guessing, to XB360. Same tools they have for development the world over, just with different APIs, only XBSX is using DX12. What tools are lacking?

The XO toolset was notoriously bad compared to PS4, so moving from x360 was a big change even if fell under the DX umbrella, was very different I guess from dx9, DX 11.x to DX 12.

PS4 to PS5 I would expect the toolset to also pretty much be the same, the same way I expect Xbox to be same as XO. So I found that strange also.

But, I can reconcile the statement if it was based on the dev kits which the PS5 from all accounts went out lot earlier than Xbox.
Maybe API updates to run on actual hardware also, instead of being emulated on PC based dev kits, if navi based no RT?

we take this for true, and that this is some partially defective Series X soc, we are saying that Series X will use Zen3, that's not have been presented yet.

it specifically says modified RT cores from another custom design. Which doesn't sound like defective chips to me, but an APU based of its design.

 

[lynux3]

The XO toolset was notoriously bad compared to PS4, so moving from x360 was a big change even if fell under the DX umbrella, was very different I guess from dx9, DX 11.x to DX 12.

PS4 to PS5 I would expect the toolset to also pretty much be the same, the same way I expect Xbox to be same as XO. So I found that strange also.

But, I can reconcile the statement if it was based on the dev kits which the PS5 from all accounts went out lot earlier than Xbox.
Maybe API updates to run on actual hardware also, instead of being emulated on PC based dev kits, if navi based no RT?

Digital Foundry has also heard the same regarding PS4/XO toolsets.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I'm only talking general terms about next-gen AI. Everything in that report is next-gen goodness - graphics, physical environment changes, etc. Suggesting next-gen AI will also be of the sort implied is missing a notable part of why it isn't like that in the first place.

I'm not sure I follow... what does that have to do with Uncharted?
Isn't better AI expected to come due to the significantly improved CPU?

At the very least, significantly faster single-threaded performance should allow each NPC to follow significantly longer scripts (many more lines of if else statements). We also don't know if the new GPUs have dedicated hardware for AI inference (supposedly coming to 2nd gen Navi?), which could be more performant than getting the CPU to follow a long script in the end.

Hm. So R6S runs at 1728p on OneX. Linear scaling would suggest 1.56x power needed to hit 4K & up to 1.5x for the framerate, though surely they're ramping up the renderer in other ways. I don't recall what DF measured of the framerates on Scorpio/Neo though.

DigitalFoundry didn't pick up the game after the mid-gen patches, but VG Tech did:

"The Xbox One X renders at a native resolution of approximately 2172x1221 and uses a form of temporal reconstruction to increase the pixel count up to 3072x1728."

Frametimes are apparently pristine 16.6ms all the time except when you get killed on a multiplayer match (it's probably resetting a bunch of variables at that moment). Looks like both consoles could be getting significantly higher framerates if the output allowed them to.
I also don't know how much of the frametime is spent on CPU bottlenecks. There's AI in R6 Siege, right?

 

[AlNom]

DigitalFoundry didn't pick up the game after the mid-gen patches, but VG Tech did:

"The Xbox One X renders at a native resolution of approximately 2172x1221 and uses a form of temporal reconstruction to increase the pixel count up to 3072x1728."

Frametimes are apparently pristine 16.6ms all the time except when you get killed on a multiplayer match (it's probably resetting a bunch of variables at that moment). Looks like both consoles could be getting significantly higher framerates if the output allowed them to.
I also don't know how much of the frametime is spent on CPU bottlenecks. There's AI in R6 Siege, right?

Thanks.

hm. It's more or less a corridor game, but I wonder if the biggest engine spikes are from visibility/culling tests when shooting/destroying the walls. There is a mode with A.I., but it's otherwise just an enclosed multiplayer space.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Digital Foundry has also heard the same regarding PS4/XO toolsets.

They start the conversation about the tools at 7m35s.
Devs have been telling them the tools for the XBone were more limited than the PS4's, and this actually extended into the XBoneX.

The surprising fact here is how easily the tables turn between each generation here. PS3's tools were deemed horrible. One gen later and devs were complaining about XBone's tools instead.

After the tools are completed this gen, the tables could turn yet again.

 

[Xbat]

I'm only talking general terms about next-gen AI. Everything in that report is next-gen goodness - graphics, physical environment changes, etc. Suggesting next-gen AI will also be of the sort implied is missing a notable part of why it isn't like that in the first place.

Better AI doesn't necessarily mean more difficult AI in my opinion. For me it's about the ai being more realistic and more individual/diverse.

Just make the aim worse or better for the AI depending on difficulty for a game involving shooting.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm not sure I follow... what does that have to do with Uncharted?

Everything in that description could be extrapolated to other next-gen games. People reading it (and believing it ) as what to look forwards to in the next Uncharted, Tomb Raider, Halo. etc. "Volumetric Lights." "Unique characters." "Geometry Deformation." "Super smart AI." But the super-smart AI won't be making an appearance in all but a niche of games because it'd break the fundaments of gameplay. Nathan Drake, a random, athletic everyman, won't be able to beat an encounter with ten trained, heavily equipped mercs if they behaved like real people; their AI will remain gamey as a requirement for the player to be able to win. For starters, 60 seconds after killing one of their team with a sniper rifle, they'll stop caring and go back to their sentry positions...

 

[Mskx]

Putting this here because apparently he's been sending pictures to the mods who are now super convinced of his legitimacy.
If it's a ruse, the mods are in on it.

Eh, if he had such good proof he would get vetted over on ResetEra too but that didn't happen and he ghosted that place.

 

[lynux3]

Eh, if he had such good proof he would get vetted over on ResetEra too but that didn't happen and he ghosted that place.

If I recall correctly I believe they were asking for personal information he wasn't willing to divulge on; could be wrong.

 

[Mskx]

If I recall correctly I believe they were asking for personal information he wasn't willing to divulge on; could be wrong.

I have not heard anything like that.

 

[anexanhume]

Putting this here because apparently he's been sending pictures to the mods who are now super convinced of his legitimacy.
If it's a ruse, the mods are in on it.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/next...leaks-thread.1480978/page-1000#post-256994247






Also a description of what appears to be the next Rainbow Six:

So a team member of the R6 gave enough personal information to make them uniquely identifiable? I’ve got some bridges to sell in lieu of a simple leap of faith.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Everything in that description could be extrapolated to other next-gen games.
People reading it (and believing it ) as what to look forwards to in the next Uncharted, Tomb Raider, Halo. etc. "Volumetric Lights." "Unique characters." "Geometry Deformation." "Super smart AI." But the super-smart AI won't be making an appearance in all but a niche of games because it'd break the fundaments of gameplay. Nathan Drake, a random, athletic everyman, won't be able to beat an encounter with ten trained, heavily equipped mercs if they behaved like real people; their AI will remain gamey as a requirement for the player to be able to win.

I think he stated the description referred to the next Rainbow 6 game (Siege 2?) and I stated as much in my post.
AI on tactical shooters should be deeply different from Uncharted or Halo or Tomb Raider. For starters, the hit rates are completely different on those games than it is on tactical shooters, and so is the damage you take from getting hit.

Eh, if he had such good proof he would get vetted over on ResetEra too but that didn't happen and he ghosted that place.

The discussion on resetera became an echo-chamber a while ago (like honestly everything on resetera). It seems the same group of people who frequent certain fan discord channels and desperately try to control the narrative here were very successful there but very unsuccessful on gaf, where they were called out earlier this year.
I think this should be discussed in depth here on B3D but probably not within this thread. When the official specs finally do come out maybe it'll be time to make the case towards the mods.

So a team member of the R6 gave enough personal information to make them uniquely identifiable?

Personal information? Where?

 

[Mskx]

So a team member of the R6 gave enough personal information to make them uniquely identifiable? I’ve got some bridges to sell in lieu of a simple leap of faith.

Also why is it written like an article in a low rent gaming magazine?

 

[Mskx]

The discussion on resetera became an echo-chamber a while ago (like honestly everything on resetera). It seems the same group of people who frequent certain fan discord channels and desperately try to control the narrative here were very successful there but very unsuccessful on gaf, where they were called out earlier this year.
I think this should be discussed in depth here on B3D but probably not within this thread. When the official specs finally do come out maybe it'll be time to make the case towards the mods.