Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

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Xbox SAD is lockhart. It can play many games. It will play some scarlet games with reduced fidelity - the cross-gen ones, it will be ablento stream from MS Cloud thing, it is as cheap as it gets.
I've said time and time again a launch cheap console makes little sense when you already have a popular predecessor in the market.
 
Kinda bummed about the death of Lockhart. I can appreciate the decision if developers weren't taking advantage of Anaconda. So in the long run it was probably the best decision. Looks like now I will either have to use xCloud for Scarlett games or pony up big moolah for the flagship device. I'll probably go for the former because I probably can't afford the latter until it's $300 or less. :/ Good thing I got the XB1X to hold me over.

Tommy McClain

Assuming that Lockhart (a 4 or 6 teraflop low-end Scarlett console) was something Microsoft actually had in development, I am totally thrilled about its apparent death.

Microsoft should focus on a single console and therefore, a single spec for next gen.

I think it's fine if Microsoft releases or supports a number of devices that stream Scarlett games (i.e. a cheap Scarlett Cloud console packed with a controller for $150. mobile phones & tablets, web browsers, and even perhaps Nintendo Switch (ha!) etc, as long as they do not have 2 different sets of specs for which 1st and 3rd party next gen Xbox games are developed for
 
Crazy hat time.
MS releasing an updated XBone S AFTER Scarlett is out, which internally actually consists of a downscalled Zen2+Navi combo that offer just barely enough performance to run Xbone S games and prior.
Think, half the CUs, half the CPU cores, all downcloked, hitting like 2Tflops or even less.
That way, it already has an extensive library of games available, and devs don't need to worry about optimising games for it if they don't want. But if they do, they can target the Zen2+Navi unlocked mode to run 1080p30 versions of Scarlett games. It would get some games, like the switch does, and it kickstart building up a library of Next Gen games that can run with the apropriate sacrifices in a lower power, but feature complete, machine.
What for For?
Xbox Switch on late next gen.
Sounds unlikely, but it's because it is.
 
Only if you think the folks over at DigitalFoundry are in the business of making up myths.

I think between journalists they talk. Certainly enough to have similiar/same information as each other. I suspect some validate their findings with their peers etc. I definitely think it existed at one point in time and got canned. There's very little doubt in my mind on that aspect.

But in the way that MS is quietly sweeping that under the rug, they're going to play the game as though it was never officially announced and they would hope the casual audience wouldn't know the better or care for that matter. As the game plan is to just say it's a bunch of paste bin rumors that never came to fruition. That's sort of the danger of having leaks to begin with, they may want to make drastic changes to their plans and just do those steps quietly without having the spotlight on it.

How interesting would it be if it was cancelled because it was leaked (and the fallout lead to them having to abandon that flank). We'd never know now
 
Milk I tought Sony can do the same by releasing a "ps4-pro" that is actually a cutted down ps5.... but trought BC can run all ps4-pro games... Nobody will relase specific ps5-lite games for it... Or maybe after some time .. so it's better to just call it PRO or maybe PRO2.... Ms probably can use underperforming chips on Azure racks... That's why they cancelled....
 
How interesting would it be if it was cancelled because it was leaked (and the fallout lead to them having to abandon that flank). We'd never know now
Maybe it was a sad edition, and it was cancelled because the sales of xb1 sad made them too sad to continue in that direction.
 
Maybe it was a sad edition, and it was cancelled because the sales of xb1 sad made them too sad to continue in that direction.
Nah that was just Phil trying to sweep shit under the rug. I think it was a plan that had some force behind it early on that was later cancelled. I would say that this type of thing is normal for a business to pursue potential leads and back off when they need to. I guess in this scenario they went 1 step too far in E3 2018 by using the plural of console.

edit: sorry I read that wrong. Yea perhaps! SAD is the experiment that failed them.

 
Milk I tought Sony can do the same by releasing a "ps4-pro" that is actually a cutted down ps5.... but trought BC can run all ps4-pro games... Nobody will relase specific ps5-lite games for it... Or maybe after some time .. so it's better to just call it PRO or maybe PRO2.... Ms probably can use underperforming chips on Azure racks... That's why they cancelled....

My suggestion, which I considered absurd to begin with, was for MS to substitute Xbone S with a cutdown scarlet, not to substitute the Xbone X. So sony's equivalent would be to substitute base ps4, not the pro.
 
They are in the business of generating clicks... And that often requires creating / repeating myths..

I don't know that devs would make stuff up like that. So it's either it existed or digital foundry lies about what devs have told them. I don't believe Digital Foundry would lie about that or anything really.
 
We don't know what the devs said. Could have been an idea floated and devs said it was a lousy idea. Could have been a build target on the SDK that just gimped a load of the performance. We've all said Lockhart made zero sense. The notion that MS went ahead and designed and built silicon for it, only to shelve the idea, strikes me as unrealistic.

See Iroboto's tweet above. The 'plans' were years old. I'm unconvinced Lockhart ever existed as a solid design. It was probably a concept, perhaps to use tiered performance hardware (similar to our suggestions of a normal $400 and a $600 Plus version clocked higher with Leet components etc.), that was bounced around and profoundly rejected for being dumb.

This is why leaks and rumours are bad. Generates loads of noise and confuses the discussion. Last gen's leaks were full-on developer documents for the final systems, so proper leaks. That spoiled us, and now people are clutching at straws. Just let it go. ;) Don't try an build a mental model of next-gen on the info we've got, trying to reconcile PS5 being more powerful than Scarlet while also Scarlet is more powerful than PS5 and a 4TF Scarlet Lite exists that plays games but also streams and only streams and doesn't play local games but can play Scarlet games but isn't an XB1 even though that'd stream just fine...etc.

Next gen is PS5 and Scarlet. They have Zen 2, AMD GPUs, and SSDs. Roll with that for the time being. ;)
 
My suggestion, which I considered absurd to begin with, was for MS to substitute Xbone S with a cutdown scarlet, not to substitute the Xbone X. So sony's equivalent would be to substitute base ps4, not the pro.

Why ps4 ? Ps4-pro has more value ... In case of MS maybe One-X (and more One-S) chips cannot be replaced by cutted Scarlet chips ? Or maybe MS can use in a better way the underperforming chips...
 
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It's a confirmed (very well done) fake not because of the date. It was a real Sony meeting at Heathrow Airport about electronic products, not PS5.

To take a picture at exactly the 0th second of a 10 minute period is less than a 1.7%. chance. Vast vast majority of pictures taken will have date time with none zero seconds.

I think the poster doctored the exif date but slipped up.
 
The only way 11+ TFlops happens with Navi is if the next consoles are 7nm + euv and even then that's pushing it.

I think the only way we get 10TFlops with next gen is if they using 7nm + euv .I will be massively surprised and happy if we get 11 TFlops next gen with Navi, I'm expecting 8-9TFlops.
 
To take a picture at exactly the 0th second of a 10 minute period is less than a 1.7%. chance. Vast vast majority of pictures taken will have date time with none zero seconds.

I think the poster doctored the exif date but slipped up.
That is true of any single second. That interpretation is similar to people being told to choose a random string of numbers. People, in general, will go out of their way to avoid repeating numbers, monotonic strings, patterns, etc in an effort to create a "random" string. In doing so, it becomes less random (it's also similar to the critical flaw of the Enigma machine).
 
The only way 11+ TFlops happens with Navi is if the next consoles are 7nm + euv and even then that's pushing it.

I think the only way we get 10TFlops with next gen is if they using 7nm + euv .I will be massively surprised and happy if we get 11 TFlops next gen with Navi, I'm expecting 8-9TFlops.

I really try to push my expectations below 10 and yes Navi flops is >Vega flops, but I am stucked. My head just won't go below 10.
 
That is true of any single second. That interpretation is similar to people being told to choose a random string of numbers. People, in general, will go out of their way to avoid repeating numbers, monotonic strings, patterns, etc in an effort to create a "random" string. In doing so, it becomes less random (it's also similar to the critical flaw of the Enigma machine).

Yes, the probability of taking a picture on any second is very small.
However, I am comparing the probability of a picture taken at exactly zero second on a 10 minute interval vs a picture NOT taken on exactly zero seconds.

If the picture was taken exactly at 12:00:00 AM wouldn't you find that suspicious? If so, why isn't a picture taking exact at 9:20:00 AM suspicious (less of course).
 
Sarcasm aside though, I haven’t seen a particularly good technical explanation other than “it’s stupid”
(..)
Hurting the baseline is a common counter-argument, but I’m not super convinced with close enough CPU’s across all SKUs currently while we are in an age of dynamic scalability for the graphics side.

Really?

1 - Dynamic scalability isn't a holy grail that solves all. You most probably need to set the boundaries for resolution and framerate.
Imagine a game that pushes the Anaconda with insane amounts of per-pixel processing and uses a dynamic resolution that ranges between e.g. 1800p30 + upscaling for indoors and 1200p30 + upscaling for outdoors.
Put that game into a Lockhart that has a 3x smaller GPU and the 1200p30 parts (2133*1200 = 2.5MPixels) will go down to a resolution that is 3x smaller, so 2.5 MPixel / 3 = 833 KPixels, which at 16:9 is something like 1215*685.
Such a rendering resolution, on the typical >= 50" TV sets from nowadays, would probably look like ass. So what the devs must do is make the game for the smaller common denominator to avoid going below 1080p on it, meaning all the IQ juice they wanted to put there for Anaconda now needs to be scaled down for dynamic scalability to work (while the PS5 gets all the juice regardless). That or they needed to treat Lockhart as yet another entirely new device to develop for, which defeats the purpose.

2 - Geometry performance is now more dependent on compute performance (primitive culling compute shader on some engines, primitive shader on Navi). That means if geometry setup takes up a bunch of GPU core time to make sure you can use very large meshes and many of those, then the percentage amount of GPU compute needed for geometry is going to be different between the larger GPU and the smaller one. Since the performance hit from geometry will be asymetrically larger for the smaller GPU, the devs now need to cut down geometry for the lowest common denominator or make two sets of geometry for each console that they have to put in the disk.

3 - More QA work for devs. Doesn't matter how close the architecture is, if it's a console you still need to do all quality for that hardware. Having the game consistently do CtDs on a PC when running on GPU XyZ with ZyX software / driver version / whatever won't be newsworthy. But on a console? That's opening a can of worms. Release year is going to be crazy for QA devs doing because multiplatform crossgen titles will release for XBone, PS4, XBoneX, PS4 Pro, PS5 and Scarlett. Four of those are fairly known quantities, but the new two are not. With Lockhart we'd be looking ay three instead.

4 - Virtual Reality. VR is extremely demanding on performance where devs must target absolute minimum 60FPS at the headset's maximum resolution which definitely won't be lower than WMR's current mininum of 1440*1440 + SMAA/TXAA (though preferrably SSAA) per eye. It's not like a VR game can dip down to 25 FPS and make people vomit, so performance must be very finely tuned. How would devs handle VR games for the slower console? Have it significantly reduce the immersive experience by reducing rendering resolution and/or AA and hurt the baseline? Say the VR headset isn't compatible with the new console?


We've all said Lockhart made zero sense.
That is definitely not my perception from reading the various responses I got whenever I said Lockhart made no sense, throughout the last few months.

See Iroboto's tweet above. The 'plans' were years old. I'm unconvinced Lockhart ever existed as a solid design. It was probably a concept, perhaps to use tiered performance hardware (similar to our suggestions of a normal $400 and a $600 Plus version clocked higher with Leet components etc.), that was bounced around and profoundly rejected for being dumb.
The statements from reporters have been saying Lockhart was "recently" scrapped. If it was scrapped within the last 3 months with a planned release date for Holidays 2020, then it probably did go well beyond the concept stages.
 
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