Andrew House admits the PS4 Pro is a reaction to PC migration

[Deleted member 13524]

All console makers who chose nvidia for their graphics decided to never use nvidia again in future consoles.
All three console makers have decided to stick with AMD graphics ever since they chose AMD for graphics, so far. Microsoft for 2.5 generations, Sony for 1.5 generations, Nintendo for 3 generations on home consoles.

I bet right now the console makers and developers are really happy with having GCN in their consoles instead of Kepler or Maxwell. The sheer potential on performance-per-transistor seems to be worlds apart once they have access to lower-level APIs, if you look at recent benchmarks.

And unlike the trash you'll read on some threads in this forum (always by the same group of 4/5 BFFs who always put likes in each others' posts), Polaris/Vega vs. Pascal on the long term is a story yet to be written.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

It's s LONG way from perfect. Lots of games still don't support just a controller (and even some of those that do, have no onscreen keyboard so expect a real one to be connected) and plenty still run some kind of launcher before the game runs, meaning you need a keyboard and mouse to navigate it.

I've been trying to get my setup close to console functionality for a while and it's s long way off. If you have suggestions, I'd be very grateful because my PC-on-TV setup is real clunky. Also a way to run Steam updates in the background would be great.

I admit I don't have hundreds of games but every multi platform game I've bought over the past couple of years work fine with just a controller. I'm sure there are some games that don't but maybe those games are meant to be player with a mouse and keyboard to begin with?

I'm not sure how big picture mode handles game launchers, maybe it skips them? Controller companion emulates a mouse outside of BPM so you could use that to launch games that use a separate launcher.

Steam game updates run in the background and steam updates run when steam starts. If you got steam configured to start when windows boots you shouldn't really have problems with updates. If steam does prompt you for an update you can use controller companion to emulate your mouse.

For me the combination of steam big picture mode and controller companion has been really good. The only real issue I have is AMD drivers not always changing the audio output from my pc to my receiver when switching from monitor output to tv output but that is always fixed by switching back and fort a couple of times. Usually doesn't take more than 30 seconds to fix is it happens and can all be done sitting on the couch holding my controller.

 

[Pixel]

The problem is that consoles are lagging further and further behind PC hardware. This is going going to get worse since NVIDIA is outperforming AMD watt per watt. Right now, an NVIDIA 1080 is capable of around 9TFlops and each of those flops is worth significantly more than an AMD TFlop. The PS4 Pro is only 4.2 TFlops. By the time the PS5 comes around -- probably when 7nm is mature -- NVIDIA will be at around 20TFlop for their flagship card.

If Sony was serious about countering the threat from PC gaming, they would start work immediately on an NVIDIA based console that would launch as soon as the 7nm process becomes mature.

Don't worry this is about to come to an end.

Price per transistor is expected to not decreasing at the rate it used to. Lets say its in late 2018 Sony releases a nm10 PS4.75 with a $400 Bill of Materials, then a year later you can get newly released team green/red videocards $400 on 7nm (1 lithography node lower). The performance improvements by going to the smaller node may largely be limited clockspeed increases and architecture tweeks. Expected increase in transistors transistor count could stagnate.

 

[eastmen]

Seems like it will still continue . The ps4 pro is a 4.4tflop machine with a low powered 8 core cpu . The rx 470/480 with an i5 will still be much faster but yes it will have a higher cost.

I think even scorpio will run into this issue. Even with zen and vega in a rumored scorpio a pc will be faster in 2017 with a low cost.

I think the rx 460 at $100 will be faster than the xbox one and ps4 at this point too

 

[Entropy]

Isn't the price per transistor expected to not decreasing at the rate it used to? Lets say its q4 2019 then the gap the gap between a nm10 PS4.75 $400 console released in late 2018 and a pc with a new 7nm $400 card (1 lithography node lower) won't be as huge as it was before. The quantity of transistors largely correlates with performance.

That graph is completely useless without the additional conditions and speculations.
At a base level, wafer cost is pretty constant, meaning that higher density lithography inherently yields lower cost per gate. The picture gets a bit less rosy when you consider that a finished wafer needs to go through a growing number of process steps (this trend will be mitigated by EUV somewhat). Moreover, there are a number of fixed costs (that are growing) before you can produce your first functional wafer. What this means is that cost per gate has a stronger dependence on production volume than before. The graph above makes a crapload of assumptions which may or may not be relevant for any given device (or even for the process when dealing with the projections).

Something as high volume as a console chip will still use some (50 million divided by 150 or so working dies per wafer) few hundred thousand wafers over it's lifetime. That's a lot. And going with better lithography allows savings in other areas of the complete device, see the "slim" console models.

Where production costs on new nodes may become questionable is lower volume parts (obviously) and particularly if the increased density and new electrical properties don't bring clear competitive benefits in power draw, performance or integration of features.

 

[Davros]

Do people think that sony should follow the pc's lead
instead of having new designs (architectures) every few years why not just bring out faster and faster ps4's (just like we get faster and faster pc's)
you get backwards compatibility, devs dont have to learn a new system, new system launches with a huge catalog of games
you still get innovation and access to new features just like you do on p.c whenever a cpu comes out with new features, or an api adds new features and cards come out that support those new features (eg: dx12)
no need to design anything from scratch just redo the motherboard to support the latest interfaces (sata version/usb version/ram slots) buy a decent off the shelf cpu and graphics card some sticks of the latest ram, a drive and you good to go. no need to spend millions in r&d.

 

[Technewsreader]

In the end PC's are becoming more like consoles(xBONE Console exclusive games,Dualshock,Xbox controller support)
and Consoles are becoming more like PC's(more Graphical options,mature Operation systems)
I don't have a problem with it as long they are not entriely trying to be the exact same thing.

Paying for multiplayer on console is one of my most hated things and it needs to die.
Why isn't it free like on PC/PS2/PS3? aren't you doing enough money already with the millions of consoles and games you sell?

I blame microsoft for starting this Xbox live thing man.Thanks a lot.

 

[milk]

I think they could allow free online play for low demand matches (peer to peer or small servers subdized by advertising) and have subscription as a premium. The masses that enjoy COD and BF would still pay up for the full experience, while the free version would serve a much better appetizer for those on the fence about online gaming than the inconsequential one month free subscription they offer.

 

[goonergaz]

PSN is free for F2P games so there's your tester

 

[milk]

PSN is free for F2P games so there's your tester

If anything, most f2p games serve to give a terrible impression of on-line gaming than an intriguing one.

 

[Nesh]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...e-of-the-tomb-raider-ps4-pro-vs-pc-comparison

It really makes you wonder. Rise of the Tomb Raider is not running 4K natively although it probably does run the game at a higher resolution than the original PS4 and neither does it have the highest settings found in PC.
What is left to find out is how the game will run at 1080p since it gives the option but I doubt it will have access to the higher settings. Most likely just a better framerate.

Is this Sony's reaction to PC gaming?

The perceived difference between Full HD and UHD (especially in games that dont have the appropriate assets to show off extra detail) isn't very strong, unless someone has a huge display. And in this case it is not even 4K.
At least if the PS4 Pro could play games at 4K with either better framerates or improved assets, that would have been much better.

But as it shows now, in many occasions it will be the same experience in sub-4k resolution scaled to 4K. It may be significantly more powerful than PS4 vanilla or XBox One S, but since performance is disproportionate to perceived quality, the final experience may not be much different from XBOX One S in cases where games are only improved in resolution.

 

[Rikimaru]

the final experience may not be much different from XBOX One S in cases where games are only improved in resolution.

720p vs 1080p+ is a huge difference in clarity.
If you are want to buy a console now, Pro is no brainer. +$50 gives 2.3x PS4, 3x Xbox One S.

 

[trainplane]

The PS4P is a headscratcher. It doesn't quite do 4K, it's released when they are already ahead of Xbox in both sales and processor speed, and they are coming out with the PSVR at almost the same time. Strategically, it seems that it would have been better to release 2017 and have similar specs to Scorpio. Obviously, Sony didn't know Scorpio was going to happen when they developed PS4P, but strategically, it seems 2017 just is better. Except...

I think Sony really did want a mid-gen upgrade at exactly the halfway point of PS4's life to combat PC and have a faster cadence of hardware upgrades. So this to me foretells that Sony is shooting for a PS5 in 2019, which is why the PS4P is out 2016. That will depend on if they can a 7nm SOC in a console by 2019 but it seems to be why Sony is coming out with the PS4P now. If they had come out in 2017 and then come out again in 2019, their customers would revolt.

 

[goonergaz]

It is self evident that companies sell products to make money and to increase market share. But this doesnt explain much when it was a reaction to the PC market penetrating into their market share. The console itself doesnt provide a strong case as a PS4 upgrade or substitute for a more powerful PC.

Time will tell, it's usually the last couple of years when I start getting the 'time to upgrade my PC' feeling as the games are substantially better on a reasonable PC - so let's see, next year when the games are flowing with both versions and DF are doing face-offs if the upgrade was worth it...because I'm comfortable that it is.

720p vs 1080p+ is a huge difference in clarity.
If you are want to buy a console now, Pro is no brainer. +$50 gives 2.3x PS4, 3x Xbox One S.

$100 (but I do agree!)

 

[Jay]

The PS4P is a headscratcher. It doesn't quite do 4K, it's released when they are already ahead of Xbox in both sales and processor speed, and they are coming out with the PSVR at almost the same time. Strategically, it seems that it would have been better to release 2017 and have similar specs to Scorpio. Obviously, Sony didn't know Scorpio was going to happen when they developed PS4P, but strategically, it seems 2017 just is better. Except...

I think Sony really did want a mid-gen upgrade at exactly the halfway point of PS4's life to combat PC and have a faster cadence of hardware upgrades. So this to me foretells that Sony is shooting for a PS5 in 2019, which is why the PS4P is out 2016. That will depend on if they can a 7nm SOC in a console by 2019 but it seems to be why Sony is coming out with the PS4P now. If they had come out in 2017 and then come out again in 2019, their customers would revolt.

In your scenario it only really works if its the ps4 ultra, if it's a ps5 and not in the same echosystem (bc but ps4p not fc), then the ps4 had 6 years and ps4p only had 3. Which you say would lead to revolt.

 

[Clukos]

1Tb to 1Tb is $50 more for the pro for significantly higher spec.

 

[goonergaz]

1Tb to 1Tb is $50 more for the pro for significantly higher spec.

ah yes, I keep forgetting to align the 1TB...

I see this as Sony also trying to twist the knife into MS pre Scorpio - Sony have a year now where for $50 extra a potential MS customer can get a substantially better machine.

That's why I'm fully expecting MS to start banging the Scorpio drums again before Pro is out.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

A 2019 PS5 could be in the same "ecossystem" by having backwards compatibility and running PS4 games at PS4 Pro specs. It's just that the PS4/Pro wouldn't be forward-compatible with PS5 games, which makes sense because in 2019 the platform will be 6 years old.

 

[Globalisateur]

The PS4P is a headscratcher. It doesn't quite do 4K, it's released when they are already ahead of Xbox in both sales and processor speed, and they are coming out with the PSVR at almost the same time. Strategically, it seems that it would have been better to release 2017 and have similar specs to Scorpio. Obviously, Sony didn't know Scorpio was going to happen when they developed PS4P, but strategically, it seems 2017 just is better. Except...

How could they know? Microsoft didn't know they were going to do the Scorpio before they learned about PS4P so...

I think Sony really did want a mid-gen upgrade at exactly the halfway point of PS4's life to combat PC and have a faster cadence of hardware upgrades. So this to me foretells that Sony is shooting for a PS5 in 2019, which is why the PS4P is out 2016. That will depend on if they can a 7nm SOC in a console by 2019 but it seems to be why Sony is coming out with the PS4P now. If they had come out in 2017 and then come out again in 2019, their customers would revolt.

So their hardware is exactly what they announced it would be. No smart lies here. PS4 Pro is an improved PS4, nothing more.

 

[iroboto]

How could they know? Microsoft didn't know they were going to do the Scorpio before they learned about PS4P so...

So their hardware is exactly what they announced it would be. No smart lies here. PS4 Pro is an improved PS4, nothing more.

We all know this isn't true. Lol. You don't just come up with these plans out of thin air. There is gating, funding well before you pay someone to start making board renders.

Both companies came upon their own choices to deliver this. Sony planned on their iteration happening sooner, MS needed to ensure they weren't going to have a weaker console again, so they made the highest spec point they could; with the knowledge of Sony leaks, they probably adjusted their time schedule, as in same delivery date "2017-2018" but they had to advance their announcement- E3.


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