anands nv38 not really an nv38?

Ante P

Veteran
just heard some loose rumors that anand just snapped that photo at computex and that he just clocked a NV35 to 475/950 for the review

does anyone know if the 5950 Ultra will have any architectural difference that actually affects performance or if it's just like the XT: an overclocked version of its predecessor?

I mean if it's a simple question of overclocking a 5900 Ultra, and the results are indeed true to "real" NV38 performance then why not, just go for it :)
 
IMO, if you don't have the hardware, then you just shoudn't publish any review. You can't base a review on assumptions.
 
On one hand, I'd like to think Ananand wouldn't do something like that without saying it was an extrapolation.

On the other, I'd like to think a respin and a brand new (sort of) two-slot cooling solution could do a little more than just an extra 5% core speed.
 
I have not been one to criticize tom's and Anand's relentlessly, but if he actually did what you just said and told no one that is beyond the pale, I cannot accept that as defendable behavior in any way at all... but then most likely he did not do that... i hope anyway.
 
I tend to believe it is real hardware. If you look at the scores, in some benchmarks it actually loses to the 5900U. If it was an oced 5900U then it would be highly unlikely that it would lose in any benchmakrs. I would tend to believe that any differences between the two are just to increase yeild. And in the case where performance was lower, it might be a card issue with the bios and or beta drivers (which seem to have more errors with each release :( ).
 
The "NV38" losing to the 5900 Ultra may not be due to changes, as not all benchmarks will return the exact same result each and every time. In other words, it's best not to pay attention to deviations of a frame or two. The next run may vary by more than that.

In my experience, UT2003 botmatch benches were notoriously bad at redundancy.

As one who is studying physics, I have to say that this is highly irresponsible. Whenever anybody publishes numbers in physics, they have to estimate the error as best they can. Numbers without possible error are useless.

Checking the variation between successive runs of a benchmark is necessary to determine the importance of measured differences in framerate.
 
Just when I start to think reviews are starting to improve a little, something like this crops up. I hope it's just a false rumor. :?
 
I, for one, find it hard to believe that Anand would be allowed to publish any sort of performance numbers on a product that is not even formally announced yet.
 
Ante P said:
just heard some loose rumors that anand just snapped that photo at computex and that he just clocked a NV35 to 475/950 for the review

does anyone know if the 5950 Ultra will have any architectural difference that actually affects performance or if it's just like the XT: an overclocked version of its predecessor?

I mean if it's a simple question of overclocking a 5900 Ultra, and the results are indeed true to "real" NV38 performance then why not, just go for it :)

where would these rumours have emanated from ?
 
This was posted by Kyle at rage3d:


1. All the tier one sites got the card last week.

3. We are now testing with 3.8s and OverDrive.

5. We did not put the 5950 in our tests as we did not have a driver we are comfortable with. By comfortable, I mean one that is either on NVIDIA's website for download, a WHQL driver, or a gold driver shipping with a retail product. I did get word early this morning that BFGTech had a driver that would be shipping with their product and they were going to get back to me on version number, either 52.12 .13 or .14.

This was in response to this:

There are a few comments I'd like to make:

1) Yes, Anand has to have some sort of special relationship with NVDA to be the ONLY reviewer to get his hands on NV38.

2) ATi's 1-year-old, .15 micron R3XX core can STILL best the un-released, future "king" from nVidia.

3) These results do not include the CAT 3.8s nor OverDrive, so the 9800XT still has more FPS to give.

4) Anand hints at NVDA IQ problems, and he will do a very thorough analysis in Part II.

5) NV38 won't even be officially announced until October 10. NVDA can make no hardware changes between now and then, so all they got are their drivers. We know that the 9800XT and 9600XT will be shipping in numbers in October. Does anyone think for a second NV38 will be on shelves by the end of the month???

6) ATi wins the 9800XT vs. NV38 battle. The real battle will be between the 9600XT and NV36. Anand says the 9600XT performs better than the 9700 PRO, but NV36 is something new.

So it would seem all the major sites have the nv38 already. For once I agree with Kyle. He decided not to bench the 9800xt against the nv38 until he had a public driver for the nv38 or at least a gold shipping version of a driver.
 
Phew, Anand's not a pathological liar, and Nvidia's hardware and drivers are of questionable functionality.

All is right with the world. ;)
 
LOL, more people creating controversy over nothing. Whoever created this rumour is what is called in the forum world as "Attention whores"

Who in their right mind would publish some results without an actual product. Only some f@nboys that hoped for something better out of such part are the ones complaining.
 
Good lord, are those truly the words of Kyle? Tell me it isn't so! What next? nVidia produce high quality AA?
 
Anand says the 9600XT performs better than the 9700 PRO

If true wouldn't that kill the sales of the 9800np and even hit their XT sales hard? From the reviews seen so far there's only minimal performance differences between ATI's 3 top cards.
 
THe_KELRaTH said:
Anand says the 9600XT performs better than the 9700 PRO

If true wouldn't that kill the sales of the 9800np and even hit their XT sales hard? From the reviews seen so far there's only minimal performance differences between ATI's 3 top cards.

Actually ATi told Anand that the 9600 XT performed better than 9700 Pro, right?
It has much less fillrate and much less bandwidth so I'm having a hard time seeing it outperform a 9700 Pro personally.

About the rumor all I can say is that I heard it from an nVidia partner (videocard manufacturer). Won't name any names though. I didn't want to cause any fuss, the point was rather to learn if the NV38 has any architectual advantage or not.

I saw one slide yesterday that explained the extra transistors as yield improvements. Though I find it hard to understand how adding more transistors would mean better yields.

As for the driver shipping with NV38 I just got a hold of 52.14 WHQL so I'm assuming this is the one. From what I can tell it's the same as the previous non WHQL:ed 52.14.
 
gkar1 said:
Who in their right mind would publish some results without an actual product.

Actually, if the 5950 Ultra is indeed just an overclocked 5900 Ultra why would it be so wrong? I mean it even uses the exact same PCB as the current boards etc. So if you know for a fact that an overclocked 5900 Ultra would produce identical results then why not publish it? (Of course while mentioning that the benchmarked board is indeed "just" a overclocked 5900 Ultra.)

I mean look at 8500 and 8500 LE, or the GF4 Ti series. Just clock the board to each level that way you won't actually have to own 6732167 boards to make a "complete" review. Good for the smaller sites out there who don't have every single board in their possession or do not get preview samples in time.
 
To clear up some of the confusion:

1) NVIDIA has supplied some with NV38 cards already, however, we were all under NDA until later this month. Apparently Anand was granted permission to post his numbers along with the specs, I bet you can guess why (although it apparently backfired).

2) I was never told that the 9600XT will outperform the 9700 (much less a PRO card) from anyone at ATI. I don't see how it could either, considering it has half the pipelines and a 128-bit memory interface at 600MHz. Anand probably misunderstood them.
 
Brandon said:
To clear up some of the confusion:

1) NVIDIA has supplied some with NV38 cards already, however, we were all under NDA until later this month. Apparently Anand was granted permission to post his numbers along with the specs, I bet you can guess why (although it apparently backfired).

Yes, this is not surprising to me in the least. It's the same sort of tactic nVidia's doing with the 50.xx Dets--while sending them out to sites and urging they be used for benchmarking in product comparisons, they are simultaneously telling end users who get them not to use them because they aren't ready for public distribution. It's a total non-surprise that they'd send him a "special" card, too, with strict instructions to honor the terms of the NDA in talking about the product, but with "permission" to use it in a comparative review with ATi's shipping products.

Going forward, I'd really like to see some FTC intervention here with respect to truth-in-advertising law enforcement. I'll make a complaint myself, but won't expect anything to be done about it--as they are swamped with this kind of thing from every industry and have way too few people to enforce much of anything.

My feeling is that any web site providing a publicity opportunity for an upcoming IHV's product which is covered under an NDA should have to publicly disclose the terms of that NDA along with the publicity for the product (as well as any and all separate verbal or written agreements with the IHV concerning the use of the NDA product in a comparative review prior to NDA expiration)--such publicity amounting to advertising. In other words, if the manufacturer's NDA is forcing a reviewer to restrict coverage of the product in such a fashion that it cannot be critically examined, those NDA restrictions need to be disclosed along with the advertising publicity being given the NDA product in the comparative review.

It seems to me that companies engaging in run of the mill NDA's for an upcoming product they anticipate shipping in the future should have little problem with this, unless of course, the price of allowing the reviewer to use the product for publicity purposes before NDA expiration is that the reviewer allows himself to be constrained by the NDA (or any other pertinent agreement or contract with the IHV) as to how he may review the product in a comparative context with competing products not under NDA. It just seems to me that the possiblity exists that NDAs are being abused and being used as publicity control mechanisms in the same way that larger companies have been using the DMCA to control the speech of smaller companies. NDAs are not meant to give a company the legal strength to manipulate publicity--their purpose is rather to forbid publicity until expiration, IMO.

The easy out--of course--for companies is that they simply do not allow their products to be used in a comparative review until the NDA has expired. Then, nothing need be publicized as to the terms of their NDAs.

What's your opinion here?

2) I was never told that the 9600XT will outperform the 9700 (much less a PRO card) from anyone at ATI. I don't see how it could either, considering it has half the pipelines and a 128-bit memory interface at 600MHz. Anand probably misunderstood them.

Well, even if he misunderstood them, apparently he did not question the information or seek to verify it with ATi (or maybe he did and they verified it.) At any rate, I agree with you that it seems an odd pronouncement, and it's too bad Anand didn't find the question of more interest such that he'd have elaborated on his statement so that people might understand whatever rational basis he had for making it. (such as, "ATi isn't making the 9700P any more," or something like that--at the very least.)
 
THe_KELRaTH said:
Anand says the 9600XT performs better than the 9700 PRO

If true wouldn't that kill the sales of the 9800np and even hit their XT sales hard? From the reviews seen so far there's only minimal performance differences between ATI's 3 top cards.

Does anyone else think ATI/Anand (whoever said this) meant plain 9700, i.e. NP? If not, I'd be extremely impressed, and am very skeptical. Even outdoing a 9700np is quite an achievement, actually.
 
Well Walt, this is the first example of this happening that I'm aware of, I think it was a knee-jerk reaction on NV's part that backfired. I don't think it will happen again, but I do agree that it sets a dangerous precedent. I agree with you that info should probably be disclosed (in the form of a disclaimer w/ the review) but I'm not sure the FTC/SEC should get involved in this point. I guess I'm just a strong believer in private industry sorting these sorts of things out on their own rather than getting the govt involved.
 
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