Alternative distribution to optical disks : SSD, cards, and download*
- Thread starter Cheezdoodles
- Start date
I totally agree that storage helps, I just don't agree that the games you mentioned are in a different league visually at all. In fact I could name a few dvd based games off the top of my head that look better to me than the ones you mentioned...but I won't. I would argue though that fast access to storage (ie, low latency to fetch assets) can also be very important when it comes to things that limit visual fidelity. Not all games can use the fmv crutch to get around slow access to assets and hence meet tcr's, and not all companies have the luxury of shall we say 'flexible' tcr application. In other words, if a third party shipped a game with load times as long as (won't mention certain ps3 exclusives here) then they would have failed certification on load times.
I don't know if a reusable media solution would ever work. For one it implies that people are discarding their old games to download new ones, unless you expect people to keep a large collection of 16gb flash memory cards around. It also means that clients would not be able to resell the games. Personally I would sooner expect an all digital steam type service before I'd ever expect to see a reusable media one. How long would it take to write ~10gb or so to a flash card anyways, aren't they kinda slow on writes? The fastest one I have is an expensive Sony model which writes at just ~20mb,sec or so. The cheaper ones write at far slower speed. I imagine the midnight launch lines would take forever as people wait for gigabytes to be written to their memory cards.
Flash would be cool though, no need to install games and fast loads. They could always go with two flash memory slots on the console, that might reduce costs as games that don't need a lot of storage can ship on just one 8gb flash card, and those that need more can use two 8gb flash cards which may be cheaper than a single 16gb one. It would allow parallel loading of assets as well which would be neat for reducing load times. Still don't see flash happening, but we have a few more years so who knows.
I'd say the same as I said to corduroygt, which to me is that others got more visuals from less storage space. I still do question how much people out there really play games outside of their little microcosms, especially when I read the same tired arguments over and over again. Strange stuff like feeling shock and awe over the water flow in a U3 video, when Bayonetta deeper in the game does the same thing with lava except on a larger scale, an order of magnitude more transparency effects and at 60fps. I mean really guys, you need to get out there and play more games, this stuff has all been done before!
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Some of us absolutely LOVE a well crafted FMV which absolutely no game ever made up to this point can possibly hope to match. For example some of the Warhammer MOC and follow on expansion Battlemarch FMV cinematics (I think Laa-Yosh worked on at least one of those) are absolutely gorgeous. And I'll always remember the beginning FMV from the first DOW. And then you have the creme de la creme FMV cinematics from Blizzard.
I'll be a sad sad puppy if FMV like that ever disappears from gaming.
Yes, as mentioned this would be an enhancement to a DD based system for people that don't have uncapped broadband.
It all depends on the system they use. In this case presumably it's an alternative to a primarily DD based distribution method. And if account verification for permission to launch/install media is required then it doesn't matter what physical transfer medium is used. Use a fast external HDD or SSD if they are really impatient. Or as mentioned a cart exchange program using either standard sized "official" carts or flash devices. Where you bring in and trade in your reuseable cart for a similar sized cart pre-loaded with the midnight launch game.
Ownership would be Steam style where you can currently redownload at anytime. So that could be over uncapped broadband, a kiosk at a gas station (while you fill your car), maybe at a McDonalds or other fast food restaurant while you eat. Or at a gamestore or retail store where they either load it while you shop or as mentioned do a trade of your cart for a preloaded cart.
Used game sales would require a chance in how digital games are handled. As I've proposed before, a situation where the publisher/developer got X-amount from transfering ownership of a game would be fair. And so that it doesn't cannibalize launch sales which are the most critical, it could be limited such that you cannot transfer rights to a game for the first 1-2 months.
Regards,
SB
well as said usb 3 is 400MB/s so you'd just need something that can write that fast , a 80 gig ssd with a fast controller could be right up that ally
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4100/ocz-vertex-pro-3-demo-worlds-first-sandforce-sf2000
something like this would work
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4100/ocz-vertex-pro-3-demo-worlds-first-sandforce-sf2000
something like this would work
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Unfortunately while USB3 has managed to up read speed to ~eSATA speeds, it still has rather anemic write speeds.
http://techreport.com/articles.x/20190/14
There you can see that while there is an ~5x increase in read speed, write speed only increased ~2x compared to USB 2.0. Which is still a lot better at 50-60 MB/s but nowhere near theoretical and thus far behind eSATA 3G (300 MB/s theoretical) much less 6G (600 MB/s theoretical).
It's too bad Firewire has always taken a backseat to USB as its write speeds haven't been nearly as crippled as it has been with USB.
Regards,
SB
so whats the problem with moving to esata 3g or even 6g ?
Silent_Buddha
Legend
There wouldn't be, other than one of the console makers making an eSATA based memory cart. Or just saying the hell with it and allowing the use of any USB and/or eSATA external storage devices to transfer media.
It's all going to come down to how secure do Sony or MS (along with the various publishers) think they can make redistributable software that relies on ownership verification rather than protection through media. On an open platform like a PC that is extremely difficult. On a properly locked down console it should be doable however.
Regards,
SB
aaronspink
Veteran
Honestly? In the world of DD, all they need is enough storage in box to handle caching of keys for offline play. Leave all media fully encrypted with either AES128 or 256. decrypt of the fly/inline. Now people can use tape drives if they really want or ionosphere standing waves and it doesn't matter. media protection has always been pointless.
Blazkowicz
Legend
yes, firewire 1600 and 3200 are even nowhere to be found.
I was wanting such a connection, playing with the idea of a actual SAN made from regular parts connected to a bad ass diskless PC.
Who cares about other games, that was not the question, the interesting part was the games that was mentioned. Developers had the superior storage on the Blu-Ray as an advantage when they developed the games. And could use this storage to create incredible looking games and likely used the storage to get around limitations on the platform.
GOW 3, Uncharted 1+2, Killzone 2, GT5
These games all got praise for their graphics, by reviewers.
It´s not just "guys" in here that needs to get out(?) and play more games, it´s also the reviewers that does nothing but plays games for a living
Who cares about other games, that was not the question, the interesting part was the games that was mentioned. Developers had the superior storage on the Blu-Ray as an advantage when they developed the games. And could use this storage to create incredible looking games and likely used the storage to get around limitations on the platform.
GOW 3, Uncharted 1+2, Killzone 2, GT5
These games all got praise for their graphics, by reviewers.
It´s not just "guys" in here that needs to get out(?) and play more games, it´s also the reviewers that does nothing but plays games for a living
Because if people actually played more games then they would see the best looking stuff doesn't make use of blu-ray storage, simple as that.
Reviewers say lots of things, including nonsense like how GTA4 looked and ran better on PS3, etc. Plus I know some review sites are in certain companies pockets, having experienced first hand how a game a co-worker worked on would be given a terrible review from a "well known online review site" before this person even touched the game, simple because "he didn't like them". So sorry, I don't take reviewers seriously.
Play more games on different platforms on your home tv and judge for yourself, you might be really surprised. I think most people simple don't bother and just go by a small subset of games that they actually play, then compare them to youtube videos of other games which is a completely useless way to compare visuals. Then they claim their small subset are the "best looking evar". For example, people often mention GT5 all the time, but I bet you if I ask them how did Forza 3 look to them when they extensively played it at home on their tv (since they always insist how everyone must extensively play GT5 to appreciate it) I'll wager most never have even booted the game and are going only by internet videos.
If you'd like me to prove that point, then next time the typical PS3 exclusives get brought up as the holy grail in gaming graphics, I'd be happy to ask these people what they thought of (insert a dozen better looking games here) to see if they really even played the competition at home. I doubt it.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Who cares about other games, that was not the question, the interesting part was the games that was mentioned. Developers had the superior storage on the Blu-Ray as an advantage when they developed the games. And could use this storage to create incredible looking games and likely used the storage to get around limitations on the platform.
GOW 3, Uncharted 1+2, Killzone 2, GT5
These games all got praise for their graphics, by reviewers.
It´s not just "guys" in here that needs to get out(?) and play more games, it´s also the reviewers that does nothing but plays games for a living
Seriously? KZ2 can easily fit on 2x DVDs without any modifications, it's 12 GB. Compress audio and video and you can probably fit it on 1 DVD with no loss of quality.
GT5 also fits on 2x DVDs at 13.9 GB. A little extra compression on audio and video and you can probably squeeze it onto one DVD as well.
Uncharted gets you closer to your goal at ~21-22 GB for the first and second game. You'd need some compression to get it to 2x DVD's with most likely unnoticeable loss of quality on audio and video. Chop out multi-lingual support and you can probably squeeze it only 1 dvd without loss in quality of game visuals and limited compromises on video and audio.
GoW 3 is your best game for this line of reasoning as it comes it at close to 40 GB. Cut out uncompressed audio for multiple languages and compress audio and video and you might be able to fit it on only 2x DVD. But there's a chance you may not be able to. So I'll give you this one as being the least likely to make it without compromises to the games graphics.
Regards,
SB
corduroygt
Banned
Just because you personally can't notice it doesn't mean there would be no loss of quality.
I have played both Gears of War games and they're not even in the same league. Not talking without any comparison here...
Silent_Buddha
Legend
The blur filter in KZ2 would have negated any minor sacrifices to already rather low texture quality in KZ2 if said textures ended up being compressed further to fit onto one DVD. But as said something as simple as compressing audio/video and/or removing multiple languages should easily get it to fit on DVD with no change in game visuals and changes to audio and video that would be unnoticeable by the vast majority of people who can't even tell the difference between .mp3's encoded at 128k versus 320k in blind listening tests.
Regards,
SB
corduroygt
Banned
I noticed enormous differences between Dolby Digital and DTS in the DVD's and Blu-rays I have. If you want to cater to "most people", the wii has shown that none of that matters anyway, so argumentum ad populum won't work here.
DTS is very old , how about Doby True hd ? I for the life of me can't tell the diffrence between the losseless and true hd verisons of tracks.
How much of that is repeated data to increase load times ? How many 1080p videos do they have and so on and so forth.
I don't think 6.7 gigs is ideal going into next generation , but i think 16 gigs is easily enough with true hd for sound and better video compression
corduroygt
Banned
I find it hard to tell any difference between DTS and lossless stuff like TrueHD, but TrueHD is lossless so it should be better, although I don't know if I'd be able to hear it. Going from DTS to lossless is just not as big a leap as going from regular DD to something that's still lossy but at a higher bitrate like DTS or DD+. The latter was very easy to hear in my experience.
In either case, TrueHD requires even more space than DTS, so it's not helping the game storage requirements argument. The $5 minimum cost difference of flash vs. blu-ray will always be there, and chip foundries running close to full capacity isn't going to help with allocation and pricing either.
Also, some gamers might be content with compressed 720p FMV sequences in games with DD sound, but some aren't.
Yeah, reduce the graphics to monochrome, go for 8Khz mono sound and it fits on a floppy.
You compromise anything can fit on whatever media you choose. Thank you for proving my point.
Are you trying very hard to ignore the point? Put the games mentioned on a storage media that doesn´t hold 25/50GB and you will compromise, that was the point.
And of course the reviewers are "wrong" what a surprise
