$1bn to build unmanned fighter

Deepak

B3D Yoddha
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A US defence contractor has received more than $1bn in funding to build a prototype unmanned fighter aircraft for the American military.
Northrop Grumman will build at least three full-scale flight prototypes for the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) over five years.
The contract win will allow Northrop to continue work on its X-47B combat drone.
 
great boon for research. Lots of interesing places to do research, like:
-secure communication
-visualization
-expending the boundaries of air-dynamics. (no need to build a plane around the cockpit)
-air-manuvarebility

epic
 
Why do you always think about warmachines etc., why not unmanned commercial jets, helicopters... ;)
 
Deepak said:
Why do you always think about warmachines etc., why not unmanned commercial jets, helicopters... ;)
i did mention helicopters. :)
as to commercial jets, i feel more comfortable knowing that there is a person up front flying the plane. but thats just me. eventually technolodgy will improve to the point that humans will be where the errors will occur.

epic
 
epicstruggle said:
Deepak said:
Why do you always think about warmachines etc., why not unmanned commercial jets, helicopters... ;)
i did mention helicopters. :)
as to commercial jets, i feel more comfortable knowing that there is a person up front flying the plane. but thats just me. eventually technolodgy will improve to the point that humans will be where the errors will occur.

epic

Are you suggesting that errors in machines are caused by machines and not the engineers, programmers, designers, etc...?
 
There was a discovery channel show a few months ago where they stated the X planes from there on out would be unmanned. I believe it was a 2002 first air show, so this seems like the first fruit of that plan.
 
epicstruggle said:
great boon for research.

What a horrific waste of money.

$1bn on military research wouldn't yield half the useful tech that the same money poured into the civil sector would simply because when it comes to military stuff, everything costs 5-10x more than the norm.

So if you amend that to "great boon for northrop grumman" and I'll agree. Otherwise not.
 
Leto said:
Commercial planes now a days can pretty much fly themselves.

Yes, but the point of having a pilot on a commerical airliner is having a single, identifiable individual to blame when the auto-pilot slams the plane into the ground for no reason.

That's very important, eg. for law suits, etc.

</cynic mode off>
 
Guden Oden said:
epicstruggle said:
great boon for research.

$1bn on military research wouldn't yield half the useful tech that the same money poured into the civil sector would simply because when it comes to military stuff, everything costs 5-10x more than the norm.

That depends what's being researched. Some research is just expensive because you can't buy stuff off the shelf, and there is no ready made manufacturing process. Everything must be custom made. Particularly, aerodynamics and space is expensive. You just don't go to Acme.com and buy halfium carbide tiles with the exact specs you need.

I agree that the government is bloated and generally pays much more than needed. But people also make the grave mistake of comparing aerospace with other industries like semiconductors.

$1billion poured into the civil sector won't neccessarily produce the same results either, because the civil sector is bounded by profitability, whereas the government isn't. There are some things which don't generate returns for 30-40 years, if at all, but are nontheless useful for society. For example, the GPS system would have never been built by private firms first. It required a truly enormous investment in basic research and engineering, and staggering costs to deploy. And of course, it's real usefullness increases proportionately if it's free to everyone.

Now, you may argue that a non-military government branch may have built the original GPS, but I'll argue that the original justification for the system would have not flown with civilian government vs the costs (e.g. spend money on GPS or spend on better highway signs and poverty?). There was no pressing need originally for civilians to have a global positioning system, and alteratives to navigation were readily available. The cold war provided a reason that overruled mere civilian government economic rationality.

R&D is a lottery. Sometime's you've just got to burn money on blind alleys and with no end purpose at all to serendipiciously get a result.
 
$1bn poured into private enterprise may not yield the best results due to profitability concerns (though the companies would naturally have to use the money the way they're supposed to be used rather than just create some money-making scheme for the company). Instead, give it to a university, the big ones have very high-class research institutes (at least in Sweden they do).

Military research means most of that huge pile of money will turn into a few expensive toys for the military, like depleted uranium-firing chainguns or cruise missiles or a tank firing system that sees through fog or whatever, and maybe one spin-off tech into the civilian field.

Doing basic research through military spending is absolutely appallingly poor use of money...
 
Guden Oden said:
$1bn poured into private enterprise may not yield the best results due to profitability concerns (though the companies would naturally have to use the money the way they're supposed to be used rather than just create some money-making scheme for the company). Instead, give it to a university, the big ones have very high-class research institutes (at least in Sweden they do).

When was the last time a university built a launcher and launched something into orbit? Publishing papers is one thing, building a communications satellite and launcher is another. The issue isn't just basic research of particle physics. The issue is engineering and production, a much more complicated and expensive field.

Students go to college to learn the theory of building bridges. But universities don't build bridges. Then they go in the real world and have to design a real bridge. It's a wholly different enterprise. Universities produce a set of inputs to the R&D process, but they are not the end of it.

A student fresh out of college, for example, would not have the neccessarily experience applying hardware design knowledge to make a chip like the NV40 or R400. There is knowledge gained in the process of actually trying to turn something from fantasy into reality. There is a difference between knowing how pieces of a puzzle work, and being able to assemble them into something.

Military research means most of that huge pile of money will turn into a few expensive toys for the military, like depleted uranium-firing chainguns or cruise missiles or a tank firing system that sees through fog or whatever, and maybe one spin-off tech into the civilian field.

One spinoff? The world you live in today is dominated by military spinoffs in virtually everyfield. Mapping and cartography, Military. The whole field of satellite communications, TV, and GPS would not exist if not for the ICBM programs. Radio and radar: Military. Don't tell me the University of Sweden, suitably funded, would have done it. Microwave communications? Military. Computers? Built to compute artillery trajectories and crack ciphers. Commercial airliners? An offshoot of troop and materiel carriers. Kevlar and other carbon composites? Military.

We need universities to research the fundamental science behind these things. But there is a big difference between a University discovering say, new forms of carbon (compostes, fullerines, nanotubes), and making a bunch of them to measure properties, and producing an aircraft wing, a car, or spaceship fuel tank in a way that can viably be mass manufactured.

We don't expect universities to be involved in manufacturing things, and there is knowledge gained in making things that cannot otherwise be acquired by simply designing on paper.

The military, private business, and universities do different kinds of research. All are valuable. The idea that the university model could handle inventing everything is lunacy.
 
DemoCoder said:
When was the last time a university built a launcher and launched something into orbit?

Why are you under the mistaken impression every new bit of technology has to be sent up into geosynchronous orbit? It's not ALL about space you know...

The issue is engineering and production, a much more complicated and expensive field.

"The military" doesn't manufacture a thing above, say, the level of uniforms or combat rations or whatever, so your argument here holds no water.

One spinoff?

Yeah, per pile of money of course. Many piles of money lead to nothing whatsoever useful in the civilian field, and sometimes nothing useful in the military field either. ;)

The world you live in today is dominated by military spinoffs in virtually everyfield.

These things could and WOULD have been invented anyway, and cheaper, since we would not have to first develop an insanely expensive military version that then has to have more money thrown at it to adapt it into civilian use. Better to simply develop the civilian version first and circumvent all the killing and maiming.

The whole field of satellite communications, TV, and GPS would not exist if not for the ICBM programs.

Just FYI, Arthur C. Clarke invented the communications satellite, so of course these things would have come anyway. Maybe faster, since GPS was first restricted to US military only for quite a while. Also, the Chinese played with fireworks maybe hundreds of years before Europe discovered gunpowder and used it in wars, so the basic principle of launching things have been around for quite a while.

Computers? Built to compute artillery trajectories and crack ciphers.

Not invented by military men though.

Commercial airliners?

Airplanes were not invented by the military EITHER. In fact, they were reluctant to embrace them initially. :devilish:

Like I said. Throwing money at the military for them to come up with CIVILIAN tech is completely the wrong way of going about things.
 
Guden Oden said:
DemoCoder said:
When was the last time a university built a launcher and launched something into orbit?

Why are you under the mistaken impression every new bit of technology has to be sent up into geosynchronous orbit? It's not ALL about space you know...

Because this thread is about unmanned vehicles. The point is, there are some engineering feats which are beyond simply a university or company to implement.

Sure, *eventually* a private company or university could build a moon base, for example, but that would be far far into the future when such projects were a trivial fraction of productive capacity of a single company or university.

You don't seem to recognize the difference between theory, experiment, implementation, and mass production. All stages require different innovations, mindsets, and rationales.

History has shown otherwise. To maximize our chances, we need to invest in all sectors: profit driven, fear driven, and pursuit of knowledge driven.
 
DemoCoder said:
Because this thread is about unmanned vehicles.

And this 'unmanned vehicle' will launch into space? Uh-huh, right. ;) Dude, it's an AIRPLANE. Not a rocket.

Besides, when it comes to launching stuff into space without help of the govt, maybe you want to check out what John Carmack is working on in his spare time, rofl... ;)

Sure, *eventually* a private company or university could build a moon base, for example, but that would be far far into the future when such projects were a trivial fraction of productive capacity of a single company or university.

Just one question here for you, who sent men to the moon in the 60s/70s, the MILITARY? :LOL:

It's still not a prerequisite, or indeed even desireable, to first develop a military version of a new technology. If we'd done the same in the space race, the first version of the Saturn V would have been camouflage-painted and carried 500 nukes to BLOW UP the moon. It would then have cost another billion and one or a few years to reengineer the rocket to carry a human cargo instead of bombs. You see what I'm getting at here?

Money spent on military gadgets produce MILITARY gadgets that are of no use to humanity. If we want new tech that benefit US, the money has to be spent ON US. Not on new weapons, in the vague hope something that is useful for other things than dismembering people will be discovered as a byproduct.

Case in point, it may have been military men that went out in space initially, but it wasn't THE MILITARY that developed manned space flight.

I never said a single university could build a moon base, that is entirely your construction, I did say however that universities are more suited to research than the military, which is not the same thing.
 
GO, you can't deny the fact that military research has benefitted mankind immensly and has been a stepping stone for further research.

Who designed Saturn V, the german guy who had been responsible for V2 earlier. And BTW, all civilian rocket programmes have worked closely (read under) respective militaries.
 
Guden Oden said:
Besides, when it comes to launching stuff into space without help of the govt, maybe you want to check out what John Carmack is working on in his spare time, rofl... ;)
Why are you on the floor laughing? Is it from ignorance? Read some of the logs that JC has posted on slashdot among other places. He has stated that they are taking proven methods/principles to build a rocket. Now who did the research for this? Answer: The govermnent. :)

epic
 
Deepak said:
And BTW, all civilian rocket programmes have worked closely (read under) respective militaries.

Is that true? As far as I know Arianespace doesn't have very close links to the military (which isn't suprising as Europe as an entity doesn't have a military).

I don't know much about the Japanese launcher programme, but I'd be mildly suprised if their military were too intimately involved.
 
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