Apple is an existential threat to the PC

[tuna]

Amazon neither have their own OS, nor their own CPU or even their own hardware.

https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/

Amazon default OS is forked from Fedora Linux.

 

[Wesker]

I think the overall answer we are looking for is just that any of the above isn't easy. As you mentioned all the big companies just doesn't, currently, have the expertise to do it. It would take many years of effort to reach the point where Apple is now and cost billions in investments.

Hopefully there will be an event the 8th of March with a reveal of the M2 chip.

The challenge is that all the fronts and factors which Apple dominate or are extremely competitive in -- hardware (chipsets, displays, modems, industrial design), software, services (Apple Pay, iMessage, Music, iCloud, TV+ are huge and are growing rapidly YoY), end-user support (Apple Stores are global and huge), and logistics -- are all extremely difficult to get a foothold in, let alone be competitive in. Compound this with the fact that you need to be at least decent on all of these fronts in order to release a competitive product, and it's little wonder why so many companies struggle to succeed compared to Apple.

I mean, the latest previews of the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 show that it's uncompetitive vs the Apple A15:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Power...ionic-in-real-world-gaming-test.595072.0.html

On desktops and laptops, the only saving grace for conventional x86 platforms is that Apple is hampered by software compatibility (have to run things through Rosetta 2 and/or a crappy OpenGL/Metal wrapper). But make no mistake, time marches on, and x86's "home court advantage" is being eroded as more and more developers learn to natively move their apps to Apple Silicon and macOS.

 

[PSman1700]

I mean, the latest previews of the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 show that it's uncompetitive vs the Apple A15:

Your linking to a site that in turn links to a video from Golden Reviewer testing GI on a Motorola equipped with a SD8g1. Thing is, the 12 pro max lost the avg framerate test against Mi11 mobile phone last year in the same game. Usually the first out with these new SoC's never perform all that well. 13 pro max performs 39fps vs S22 ultra 43fps in booredatwork's (youtuber) performance test of genshin impact.

Its about sustained performance man, not just synthetic benchmarks which are completely useless to us end-users.

On desktops and laptops, the only saving grace for conventional x86 platforms is that Apple is hampered by software compatibility (have to run things through Rosetta 2 and/or a crappy OpenGL/Metal wrapper). But make no mistake, time marches on, and x86's "home court advantage" is being eroded as more and more developers learn to natively move their apps to Apple Silicon and macOS.

MS, NV, and AMD, intel, have BIG problems. In your fantasy land.

 

[Wesker]

Your responses are so predictable...

Your linking to a site that in turn links to a video from Golden Reviewer testing GI on a Motorola equipped with a SD8g1. Thing is, the 12 pro max lost the avg framerate test against Mi11 mobile phone last year in the same game.

Right, the same Mi 11 with mediocre battery life and thermal problems, despite coming with a 5000mAh battery and being taller, fatter, and longer than an iPhone 12 Pro?
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16830/the-xiaomi-mi-11-ultra-review/5

Usually the first out with these new SoC's never perform all that well. 13 pro max performs 39fps vs S22 ultra 43fps in booredatwork's (youtuber) performance test of genshin impact.

Its about sustained performance man, not just synthetic benchmarks which are completely useless to us end-users.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16983/the-apple-a15-soc-performance-review-faster-more-efficient/3

No Apples to Apples in Gaming
In terms of general gaming performance, I’ll also want to make note of a few things – the new iPhones, even with their somewhat limited thermal capacity, are still vastly faster than give out a better gaming experience than competitive phones. Lately benchmarking actual games has been something that has risen in popularity, and generally, I’m all for that, however there are just some fundamental inconsistencies that make direct game comparisons not empirically viable to come to SoC conclusions.

Take Genshin Impact for example, unarguably the #1 AAA mobile game out there, and also one of the most performance demanding titles in the market right now, comparing the visual fidelity on a Galaxy S21 Ultra (Snapdragon 888), Mi 11 Ultra, and the iPhone 13 Pro Max:

Even though the S21 Ultra and the Mi 11 Ultra both feature the same SoC, they have very different characteristics in terms of thermals. The S21 Ultra generally sustains about 3.5W total device power under the same conditions, while the Mi 11 Ultra will hover between 5-6W, and a much hotter phone. The difference between the two not only exhibits itself in the performance of the game, but also in the visual fidelity, as the S21 Ultra is running much lower resolution due to the game having a dynamic resolution scaling (both phones had the exact same game settings).

The comparison between Android phones and iPhones gets even more complicated in that even with the same game setting, the iPhones still have slightly higher resolution, and visual effects that are just outright missing from the Android variant of the game. The visual fidelity of the game is just much higher on Apple’s devices due to the superior shading and features.

The A15 continues to cement Apple’s dominance in mobile gaming. We’re looking forward to the next-gen competition, especially RDNA-powered Exynos phones next year, but so far it looks like Apple has an extremely comfortable lead to not have to worry much.

Emphasis my own.
I would assume, given your very vocal support of pushing graphical fidelity with things such as ray tracing, that you would be critical of Androids lowering IQ in a game like Genshin Impact?

Your denial of Apple's performance leadership in software and hardware is not factually based whatsoever.

MS, NV, and AMD, intel, have BIG problems. In your fantasy land.

They're doing fine in their respective areas. But I'm clearly talking in the context of competing with Apple on a multitude of consumer platforms.
Just a quick summary of Apple's most recent quarter:
- $124 billion in revenue (Mac: $10.9b; iPhone: $71.6b; iPad: $7.2 b; Services: $19.5b; Wearables: $14.7b). All areas, but the iPad, grew. Of particular note: Services revenue is up 24% YoY.
- $34.6 billion profit.
- Active install base of 1.8 billion (number of Apple devices in use at any given time), of which approximately 120 million are Macs.
- 785 million paid subscriptions on its platform (up 27% YoY; includes third party subs).
- 516 Apple Stores globally (US: 272; RoW: 244).


You can continue to put your head in the sand and deny Apple's success and performance and execution leadership. But spare us of your delusions.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The market is far more developed and less competitive than it was when Apple started. Because the market is more developed you can't start small any more, because the market is less competitive there isn't any real room for acquisitions any more. Apple made it's acquisitions at the right time and competition will now be prevented from forming a competitive company by regulators.

Why does Microsoft have to start with small changes? Why do you think Microsoft have to acquire anybody to have a modified ARM or x64 processor? The Xbox market is minuscule compared to the PC market yet, Microsoft work with AMD to produce custom x64 APU for their game consoles and companies much smaller than Microsoft produce tailor ARM reference designs for their own needs.

https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/. Amazon default OS is forked from Fedora Linux.

I thought we were talking about consumer hardware.

 

[MfA]

Why do you think Microsoft have to acquire anybody to have a modified ARM or x64 processor?

My initial thesis was what "if another company tried to become a vertically integrated ecosystem competitor". Licensing isn't vertically integrating. Building a processor team, is going to add ~5 years extra to before you can compete. Letting Apple have the market an extra ~5 years is a bad idea when they are already so entrenched.

Now Microsoft has already been building a team, so that's not too relevant. The biggest problem for Microsoft is that they can't go back into mobile, their shareholders won't allow it. Even though Microsoft needs to, because non ecosystem competitors will be dead in the consumer space in the long run, but the stock market doesn't have that kind of time horizon or vision.

Apple vertically integrated for processors and modems at just the right time, trying to follow them is going to run headlong into regulators now.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

My initial thesis was what "if another company tried to become a vertically integrated ecosystem competitor". Licensing isn't vertically integrating. Building a processor team, is going to add ~5 years extra to before you can compete. Letting Apple have the market an extra ~5 years is a bad idea when they are already so entrenched.

This is nuts. ARM rapidly deploy architecture updates and their partners adapt it really quickly. They have to. Nobody is suggesting Microsot should start from scratch, the base ARM architecture is really good and companies like Samsung, Qualcomm and Apple and made it better for their particular needs.

Now Microsoft has already been building a team, so that's not too relevant. The biggest problem for Microsoft is that they can't go back into mobile, their shareholders won't allow it. Even though Microsoft needs to, because non ecosystem competitors will be dead in the consumer space in the long run, but the stock market doesn't have that kind of time horizon or vision.

Surprisingly to me, Microsoft's shareholders didn't bat an eyelid at $70bn on the Activision-Blizzard buyout which suggests that Microsoft shareholders have a lot of faith in the management team. Shareholders, through the board, influence significant strategic direction but they don't get involved in day-to-day business. The management team lead on this, shareholders are the least qualified people to be telling Microsoft's management team how to manage an IT company.

Apple vertically integrated for processors and modems at just the right time, trying to follow them is going to run headlong into regulators now.

Apple aren't doing anything in the modem space, every single iDevice has relied on Qualcomm or Intel modems.

 

[MfA]

This is nuts. ARM rapidly deploy architecture updates and their partners adapt it really quickly.

Not full custom.

Nobody is suggesting Microsot should start from scratch, the base ARM architecture is really good and companies like Samsung, Qualcomm and Apple and made it better for their particular needs.

Apple bought multiple full custom teams.

Surprisingly to me, Microsoft's shareholders didn't bat an eyelid at $70bn on the Activision-Blizzard buyout which suggests that Microsoft shareholders have a lot of faith in the management team.

So you think the board and shareholders are going to write off on another Nokia adventure?

Apple aren't doing anything in the modem space, every single iDevice has relied on Qualcomm or Intel modems.

They did buy Intel's team, it ain't going to last.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Not full custom.

I don't even know what you mean by "full custom" or what is so defective in ARMs reference designs that would require significant changes to the architecture. ARM is popular for a reason, it's great out of the box. Apple's earliest and simplest changes to the ARM architecture in iDevices was introduction changes that made resource counting - how the OS manages usage of key types of resource - much faster.

Apple bought multiple full custom teams.

What teams? What did those teams do to Apple's implementation on ARM?

So you think the board and shareholders are going to write off on another Nokia adventure?

They did once. As long as Microsoft are making more than they lose and the company's overall value value is increasing, Boards tend to be fairly forgiving of ventures that don't work out. Why do you think Microsoft's efforts would end up as a failure (i.e. another Nokia?). Ands again, you keep drifting back to the acquisition-thinking. What expertise to take ARM/x64 and make it better do you think Microsoft can only attain through an acquisition rather than just hiring some smart people?

 

[MfA]

I don't even know what you mean by "full custom"

Not using the core macros from ARM, just the ISA.

What teams?

Intrinsity and PA Semi.

PS. I needed to look that up, I also saw they acquired a holography company likely for AR. It's always been my conviction that the obvious road to low weight AR/VR lenses is to use RGB hoxels (ie. RGB filters, with reflective diffractive elements beneath them, with a low fill factor for AR so you can see "through" them). If Apple pulls that off it will be a quantum leap in headset tech.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Not using the core macros from ARM, just the ISA.

"Core macros" ? What does that even mean?

PS. I needed to look that up, I also saw they acquired a holography company likely for AR. It's always been my conviction that the obvious road to low weight AR/VR lenses is to use RGB hoxels (ie. RGB filters, with reflective diffractive elements beneath them, with a low fill factor for AR so you can see "through" them). If Apple pulls that off it will be a quantum leap in headset tech.

What does AR/VS have to do with CPU design? Dude, you've gone full deep dive into conspiracy-level madness here.

 

[PSman1700]

Right, the same Mi 11 with mediocre battery life and thermal problems, despite coming with a 5000mAh battery and being taller, fatter, and longer than an iPhone 12 Pro?
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16830/the-xiaomi-mi-11-ultra-review/5

I was talking about actual performance. The Mi11 outperformed the A14/iphone12 pro max in sustained performance in Genshin Impact, in peak performance they were equal. One of the heaviest mobile games out there. Battery performance is worse aswell as temperatures, but the Iphones are dimming the screen to a brightness that is below the minimum you can control using the brightness slider, while also throttling more (worse performance). All the while the A series enjoy the process node advantage, too. It aint all that bad as you wish it is.

Your denial of Apple's performance leadership in software and hardware is not factually based whatsoever.

No, i am not denying Apple sillicon performance, they are ahead (perhaps by two generations in cpu prowess for mobile phones) in synthetic benchmarks. But is that enough to utterly destroy competition? Nah, even in the heaviest of heaviest benchmarks, were talking about performance deltas that wont matter to anyone but fanboys.
The average user isnt going to delve into Anandtech (more on that later) to inspect synthetic benchmarks when buying a new mobile phone. Maybe they watch popular youtubers doing comparisons (where more ofteh then not Iphones and popular androids arent far apart performance wise). Synthetic benchmarks? i dont even think the average user knows what these benchmarks mean.

About Anandtech, where does the creator/owner of that site work, again? To be honest, there are many posts and articles around the web, aswell as the comments sections of their articles, where people generally lash out where Anandtech is called heavy biased towards Apple. I can find many articles and benches where things dont look all that doom and gloom for non-apple devices. Its just what you want to read and find.

Android phones have never been this close to Apple in software department, they have been in a much worse state say 10 years ago. Performance wise they all are close enough for it to not matter all that much. The S22/ultra is generally the fastest device in real world speed tests, the things people do on phones. Why would the avarage joe care about benchmarks.

In my personal view, basing everything of anand tech articles, where everything but Apple is being put as being doomed and the worst thing ever in techland doesnt give you alot of credibility. Anandtech aint the Anandtech it was back in the early 2000's.

Now Microsoft has already been building a team, so that's not too relevant. The biggest problem for Microsoft is that they can't go back into mobile, their shareholders won't allow it. Even though Microsoft needs to, because non ecosystem competitors will be dead in the consumer space in the long run, but the stock market doesn't have that kind of time horizon or vision.

Thats your humble opinion and view of the future. I find that very short-sighted. What your basically describing there is that MS, NV, Sony, AMD, Intel, Samsung etc are all doomed and cant do anything about it. Why arent they just closing and selling off everything if that would be the case? Apple covers around 15% of that market, 85% is that non-walled garden/ecosystem market.
And seriously, would you really be happy with Apple taking over the world? (theres articles on that). Think about it, your next Playstation being on Apple sillicon, perhaps no more Sony and MS/Nintendo, no more Windows pc's/devices, all electric cars Apple, everything closed/walled garden by Apple.

 

[MfA]

"Core macros" ? What does that even mean?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_intellectual_property_core

What does AR/VS have to do with CPU design?

Nothing, it just interested me. Apple does a lot of acquisitions in a very wide area. It's part of building ecosystem, but mostly it just interested me.

 

[MfA]

What your basically describing there is that MS, NV, Sony, AMD, Intel, Samsung etc are all doomed and cant do anything about it.

I don't think vertical integration to the extent Apple is doing is necessary. I do think ecosystem integration is necessary. I think Google, Microsoft and Samsung could in theory become/remain ecosystem competitors.

I love Google's engineering, but they will find it very hard to pivot off datamining consumers and this will make fighting Apple a losing battle. Maybe they could split off all their platforms (Chrome OS + Android + Nest) and merge that with some big streaming service to provide a counterbalance to Apple, it's possible, but they would have to start charging much more per device for Chromebooks and Android phones.

Microsoft's Nokia failure will likely make them gunshy to try to go for a full ecosystem again (ie. with mobile) and they seem incapable of truly pivoting off win32 and the way too open PC hardware model. They go halfsies with Windows 11 SE and Surface, but halfsies won't cut it.

Samsung has tried and failed to go alone on platform software before.

Intel/AMD/NVIDIA can do fine if one or more of the above three offers a competitive consumer ecosystem and allows them to keep taking part in the consumer market. If not though, it will be hard times (the hyperscalers are starting to have their own processors manufactured, as big as servers are it's a market in danger too).

 

[Wesker]

So you've resorted to conspiracy theories and smearing. Great.

I was talking about actual performance.

Performance which are incomparable due to different rendering resolutions and IQ.
Even then, the A15 dominates.

Android phones have never been this close to Apple in software department, they have been in a much worse state say 10 years ago. Performance wise they all are close enough for it to not matter all that much. The S22/ultra is generally the fastest device in real world speed tests, the things people do on phones. Why would the avarage joe care about benchmarks.

Delusional.

About Anandtech, where does the creator/owner of that site work, again? To be honest, there are many posts and articles around the web, aswell as the comments sections of their articles, where people generally lash out where Anandtech is called heavy biased towards Apple. I can find many articles and benches where things dont look all that doom and gloom for non-apple devices. Its just what you want to read and find.

What an embarrassing and shameful post.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2241134/

Is this you?
So accusations against Nvidia are off the table, but conspiracies against Apple and Anandtech are all fair?

 

[PSman1700]

it will be hard times

We will see about that. Nothing points to all these large companies being in any forseeable trouble atm.

So you've resorted to conspiracy theories and smearing. Great.

Again, where does the creator/owner of Anandtech work? Just a simple question, thats all.

Performance which are incomparable due to different rendering resolutions and IQ.

You gotta substitute these claims with more than one source though, its quite vauge what that Anandtech article notes.Also, have you actually tried GI on a high end iphone/android? I tried on a 12pro max vs S21 Ultra, the visual differences arent that large, its quite hard to spot btw. How many everage users are going to care?

Even then, the A15 dominates.

Not really, it has a lower average FPS vs the SDgen1 in Genshin Impact. Here is the video, want to blame it on the reviewer etc? il call it conspiracy theories.

Delusional.

Well if you really think Android is doing worse than 10 years ago, its not me being delusional. Guess you werent around during the SD800 and touchwizz times.

So accusations against Nvidia are off the table, but conspiracies against Apple and Anandtech are all fair?

Try to stay ontopic, youre veering off and derailing the topic by introducing NVidia and FSR upscaling technologies topics into an Apple vs the world topic.
This with Anandtech already started in 2014, they are alongside The Verge the place to be if your an Apple user/fan. Bias might be the wrong wording perhaps, as many on forums say regarding Anand. Influence might be a better fit.

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...-bias-now-that-anand-works-for-apple.2404957/

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...t-anand-works-for-apple.2404957/post-36832316

In the same vein, theres videos and articles where Apple sillicon doesnt fare aswell as they do in Anands articles (and the verge's). Like dave2d (where the mac m1 max gets destroyed) and the above YT link. You can find synthetic benches where Apple wins (and probably videos of real world useage too), vice versa for me aswell.
The point im trying to make is that yes, Apple is ahead in SoC performance, but 1) it does not matter all that much that everyone else is in danger 2) they are not that far apart in real world useage (what matters to most people).

PS5 is more powerfull then the Switch. Nintendo has no reason to exist.

 

[TobiasAT91]

Anandtech has been pro-apple for over a decade. Not siding with anyone here, sonen are yelling 'conspiracy' way too soon.

 

[Pressure]

About Anandtech, where does the creator/owner of that site work, again? To be honest, there are many posts and articles around the web, aswell as the comments sections of their articles, where people generally lash out where Anandtech is called heavy biased towards Apple. I can find many articles and benches where things dont look all that doom and gloom for non-apple devices. Its just what you want to read and find.

Anandtech has been pro-apple for over a decade. Not siding with anyone here, sonen are yelling 'conspiracy' way too soon.

Anand Lal Shimpi left AnandTech back in 2014 to work at Apple. I am not sure why this should have some influence on Ryan Smith 7 years later when they reviewed the iPhone 12?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Ouch, don't use a Mac running MacOS if you need robust data integrity and durability. It's a long thread with a lot of information.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494213855387734019

macOS doesn't even seem to try to proactively issue syncs; you can write a file on macOS, fsync() it, wait 5 seconds, issue a hard reboot (e.g. via USB-PD command), and the data is gone. That's pretty bad.

So, if you have a Mac and do important work on it, definitely do not skimp on getting a UPS. Hell, I recommend to everyone I know with a computer (PC, Mac, Linux, whatever.) to always have a good UPS with a good battery.

This guy is currently working on porting a version of Linux to Apple M1 Macs.

Regards,
SB

 

[Wesker]

Ouch, don't use a Mac running MacOS if you need robust data integrity and durability. It's a long thread with a lot of information.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1494213855387734019

So, if you have a Mac and do important work on it, definitely do not skimp on getting a UPS. Hell, I recommend to everyone I know with a computer (PC, Mac, Linux, whatever.) to always have a good UPS with a good battery.

This guy is currently working on porting a version of Linux to Apple M1 Macs.

Regards,
SB

The same user posted on r/Apple clarifying and expanding on his findings:

https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/sun6pa/comment/hxg1mo0

Pretty interesting thread.