NextGen Audio: Tempest Engine, Project Acoustics, Windows Sonic, Dolby Atmos, DTS X

[Deleted member 13524]

Wrong because, the "endgame" of high fidelity with stationary setup is speakers and room disappearance from equation, and that's a taller order than getting wearables right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_field_synthesis#High_cost

The page you mentioned on wikipedia points to speaker systems consisted of "a large number of individually driven loudspeakers". How is this proof that the endgame of high fidelity is speakers disappearance from equation?

Headphones at the end will work better if your HRTF is near one of the five profile with more profile added during the PS5 lifetime or better if Sony create a database of HRTF profile for each people. They think about it and they filed a patent for this.

Sony isn't going to put everyone in a HRTF accoustics lab to create a database with a HRTF map for each person. It's just no feasible.
At best you can upload pictures of your head and outer ears for them to approximate your HRTF profile, but it'll still be an approximation, not the actual thing.

That is actually what is wrong with normal speaker setup. You can't isolate what should be heard on each of your ears. If I just want to simulate a sound coming from my right and then bleed to my left ear, that is what exactly hrtf should do. There are plenty example of hrtf done right that gives a really big (basically unlimited) sound stage with a lot more precision than what a speaker setup could offer. The thing that make me use speaker is sometimes I just don't want anything in/on my ears or I just want to feel the subwoofer rumble. Also it is useless in a social situation, like playing together on the same room with your friend.

Ok, let me rephrase my initial statement:

- Headphones can't compare with proper surround speakers in soundstage / 3d audio unless you have a "perfect" HRTF of your head and a HRTF that works flawlessly.

Perfect HRTFs of our heads aren't going to happen in mass volume anytime soon, so surround speakers will be the best option for 3D audio in years to come.

I assume this tempest audio will take advantage of both headphones and 7.2 setups?

Tempest is both reverb processing of "hundreds of sound sources" and HRTF. People with multi-speaker setups that don't need HRTF for headphones will still enjoy Tempest's features.

 

[Strange]

Not an expert but, headphones are basically simulating directional sound more then a conventional setup does. A sound coming from the rear actually does come from the rear on a 7.2 setup, whereas with headphones thats a (good) simulation.
I assume this tempest audio will take advantage of both headphones and 7.2 setups?

I have to say that this is bull. A sound from the rear does come from your rear, but most likely from the wrong direction. When calculated correctly, the headphone will simply deliver what exactly your ear canal should hear and give you a very exact reproduction of the sound, simulating an exact source from whatever position it originated.

Having finite amount of speakers simply cannot emulate where the sound comes from correctly, let alone factor in what the room itself does, and also where the listener(s) is (are) located.

Go look up ASMR and tell me how speakers can even try to replicate that, which is easily done with cheap headphones.
A good example was given above already. A speaker system has a hard time letting a sound be heard with one ear but not the other.
No problem doing that with headphones.

There should be a lot of HRTF samples for Sony to choose from and as long as you can find a good HRTF profile that's close enough to your head's through a well thought out test you should be able to get good results.

 

[chris1515]

The page you mentioned on wikipedia points to speaker systems consisted of "a large number of individually driven loudspeakers". How is this proof that the endgame of high fidelity is speakers disappearance from equation?



Sony isn't going to put everyone in a HRTF accoustics lab to create a database with a HRTF map for each person. It's just no feasible.
At best you can upload pictures of your head and outer ears for them to approximate your HRTF profile, but it'll still be an approximation, not the actual thing.



Ok, let me rephrase my initial statement:

- Headphones can't compare with proper surround speakers in soundstage / 3d audio unless you have a "perfect" HRTF of your head and a HRTF that works flawlessly.

Perfect HRTFs of our heads aren't going to happen in mass volume anytime soon, so surround speakers will be the best option for 3D audio in years to come.



Tempest is both reverb processing of "hundreds of sound sources" and HRTF. People with multi-speaker setups that don't need HRTF for headphones will still enjoy Tempest's features.

And approximate work very good if it is near your HRTF profile. For example it works good in my case. Five profiles is not enough but if they have an approximation of HRTF for each player this is good and probably much better than a limited numbers of speakers.

 

[xz321zx]

The page you mentioned on wikipedia points to speaker systems consisted of "a large number of individually driven loudspeakers". How is this proof that the endgame of high fidelity is speakers disappearance from equation?

"In principle, it is possible to establish a virtual copy of a genuine sound field indistinguishable from the real sound."

Because it's uncolored by room and speaker interaction so it can simulate a hall inside the volume of a room for example.

With wearable you are not tied to a specific sound of a specific room either, so it's closer to the above , by a mile.

I know of worse issues than personal HRTF.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

And approximate work very good if it is near your HRTF profile.

How good? How near? This is all very subjective.

And we're not even talking about all the immersion lost in headphones due to missing all the vibration feeling getting to our somatossensory system, through the low frequency sounds coming from a subwoofer or full-range speakers. Sound isn't perceived by eardrums alone.

 

[London Geezer]

Headphones can only simulate sounds from above you. And it's not very accurate for sounds coming from behind you. I have never, ever heard headphones and/or any demos that can reproduce heights sounds like we get with Atmos, no matter how much Sony tries to beat this dead horse.

 

[Strange]

And here we have Atmos doing that with headphones and claiming that you can have sound above & around you.

Works quite well with my A50 as far as I'm concerned.
I had good experiences when trying to locate stuff all around me (including above, in front, left, right, behind me) when playing with my PSVR+heaphones.

 

[chris1515]

Headphones can only simulate sounds from above you. And it's not very accurate for sounds coming from behind you. I have never, ever heard headphones and/or any demos that can reproduce heights sounds like we get with Atmos, no matter how much Sony tries to beat this dead horse.

This is false. Your HTRF profile is not the one choose for the demo or video maybe you have a non common HRTF.

I heard the sound coming from behind me. Depending of your HRTF someone will heard flat sound but this is why they have five preexisting profile and they will extend it and will try using photos and AI to approximate people HTRF with a HRTF database.

Again this is just a matter to be able to approximate your HRTF when it will be done headphones will be better than your home cinema setup. Sony will support it too but the best experience will be on headphones.

 

[novcze]

"In principle, it is possible to establish a virtual copy of a genuine sound field indistinguishable from the real sound."

Because it's uncolored by room and speaker interaction so it can simulate a hall inside the volume of a room for example.

With wearable you are not tied to a specific sound of a specific room either, so it's closer to the above , by a mile.

I know of worse issues than personal HRTF.

yup, room influence is big thing, that's why I gave up on loudspeakers and went with decent DAC/headphone amp and studio headphones for quality stereo listening. Of course people who can dedicate whole room to AV are in different position.


p.s.
I was browsing 3D sound demos on YT and this one sound good. I'm sure Sony can do better 5 years later and with more power dedicated to 3D sound synthesis.

 

[B-Nice]

Both great demonstrations

 

[goonergaz]

Headphones give devs absolute control over the sounds in your ears whereas amps (no matter how good the setup) do not allow the devs absolute control - there are differences in rooms that simply cannot be calculated, in maybe ways rooms are like the ears none are exactly alike!

As for bass replication, you can get those buttkickers or just have the bass running.

 

[goonergaz]

Why do you think it wouldn't work?

3d audio for headphones is literally just a stereo signal. Sending it through HDMI for headphones connected to an HDMI device (TV/receiver/optical audio extractor/etc) would work just fine.

In fact, Xbox has had exactly this option (labelled: "Using HDMI or optical audio headset") for years, and it's never caused any issues.

Because they won’t be sending the signal via HDMI...if they were then TVs would be supported.

 

[Jay]

Is there 2 different conversations going on?

1. Saying should be able to pass through the stereo signal through the amp to the headphones.
2. You need to use headphones as stereo output not supported, due to needing to use headphones (i.e not speakers)

 

[novcze]

Is there 2 different conversations going on?

at least 3, because @London Geezer wants support for Atmos setups on top of that


edit:
it all stems from Playstation Blog post which suggested that 3D sound for headphones will be available only via wireless headphones, USB headphones or DualSense headphone output. I'm saying it's silly if that's the case, because you can get sound to headphones in many other different ways but all requires 3D sound for headphones going through HDMI.

Then you have people saying Sony can't allow 3D sound for headphones via HDMI because people could accidentally hear it through loudspeakers and blame Sony for bad experience.

 

[manux]

Headphones can only simulate sounds from above you. And it's not very accurate for sounds coming from behind you. I have never, ever heard headphones and/or any demos that can reproduce heights sounds like we get with Atmos, no matter how much Sony tries to beat this dead horse.

Half life alyx does pretty neat things with audio in vr. I wish I could find the video where john carmack talks about oculus 3d audio research and hrtf functions. He was detailing experiment they have in labs. They moved audio source in lab and then simulate same audio and output via headphones. Users who had their ear+head structure mapped to produce perfect hrtf function were not able to distinguish between real audio source moving in lab vs. synthetic audio from headset. User's were also able to pinpoint real/fake audio in space. Carmack also explained how this is not feasible currently as it's complicated to get perfect hrtf function for every user. As incredible as it is, sony is trying to make this happen sooner than later. I'm not expecting sony to get this right for everyone from get go, but that definitely is a good way to go about 3d audio.

 

[AzBat]

at least 3, because @London Geezer wants support for Atmos setups on top of that

He just needs to bite the bullet & go with the only next-gen system that launches with Dolby Atmos & Dolby Vision support.

Tommy McClain

 

[pjbliverpool]

This is false. Your HTRF profile is not the one choose for the demo or video maybe you have a non common HRTF.

That was absolutely spectacular. I've heard lots of 3d sound before but never anything that comes close to that. It was a real eye (ear?) opener of what's possible. Had a giant smile on my face thoughout that and was genuinely creeped out at how much it sounded like someone was in the room with me.

Even Oculus has never come that close unless I just don;t notice in VR because it's more natural given the visual queues. Incidentally the Realspace video above didn;t work anywhere near as well for me. Perhaps the profile on the barber shop was just a better fit for my ear.

 

[PSman1700]

That was absolutely spectacular. I've heard lots of 3d sound before but never anything that comes close to that. It was a real eye (ear?) opener of what's possible. Had a giant smile on my face thoughout that and was genuinely creeped out at how much it sounded like someone was in the room with me.

Even Oculus has never come that close unless I just don;t notice in VR because it's more natural given the visual queues. Incidentally the Realspace video above didn;t work anywhere near as well for me. Perhaps the profile on the barber shop was just a better fit for my ear.

I must say that demo is really impressive with headphones. I didnt really get the scissors in the rear/top but when he was walking around the room that was really sounding like it was from the rear i think.

 

[Quadbitnomial]

I must say that demo is really impressive with headphones. I didnt really get the scissors in the rear/top but when he was walking around the room that was really sounding like it was from the rear i think.

That's something a personalized hrtf profile can solve. But Sony is offering 5 profiles to choose from so if your profile fits or is closer to one of the choices, it should work better than a generic hrtf profile used in most video demos on youtube. In theory anyway, now we wait a couple more weeks.

 

[London Geezer]

He just needs to bite the bullet & go with the only next-gen system that launches with Dolby Atmos & Dolby Vision support.

Tommy McClain

I’m tempted, you know that