Coronavirus Pandemic (COVID-19) (SARS-CoV-2) [2020]

Is there any data on how contagious this thing actually is? Just wondering because Japan is up there in terms of amount of infections but there isn't a whole lot of testing going on. Basically they won't test unless you had a fever for at least 4 days (2 for older people I think). With the cruise ship, the infections, people still moving around packed together on public transport with the millions, if this thing was that contagious, shouldn't there be a lot more infections by now?
I used to think that way. But now it's in the general population in countries like Italy and the UK, we can see the exponential growth rate. 20% growth a day is a whole country in two to three months, and we're seeing higher than that.
 
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The data seems to suggest each person infects 2-2.5 other people. For flu, that number is closer to 1.4.
Unless the infected is a gas station attendant, newspaper deliverer, cashier, etc... I would think handling credit cards might be problematic.
 
In China they managed expetionally well... This is the truth. In Italy our silly left wing government did a disaster since the beginning and now keeping with late decisions... Only real strategy here is supplement strategy
I still don't know if I have faith in the infected/fatalities data coming out of China. Also I'm not sure all countries are using the same procedure for identifying the virus, ie once China changed their identification process the coronavirus count data started to reverse, or be less impactful.
 
I still don't know if I have faith in the infected/fatalities data coming out of China. Also I'm not sure all countries are using the same procedure for identifying the virus, ie once China changed their identification process the coronavirus count data started to reverse, or be less impactful.
A lot of scepticism! China saw a downward trend before changing their measurement. That caused the massive spike, but the downward trend carried on, just on a different scale. China's change is documented as counting all possible infections rather than confirmed. The data since then has been consistent in measuring possible, and then confirmed (when tests caught up with numbers of people), cases, meaning the downward trend is genuine. Unless you think they are flat out lying and people are infected and dying in droves...

If infected people don't mix with the uninfected, the disease burns out, just like a fire does when isolate from more fuel. It's the way the Bubonic Plague was finally beaten, simply by keeping it from infecting people. There's no logical reason to doubt the results in China.
 
The data seems to suggest each person infects 2-2.5 other people. For flu, that number is closer to 1.4.
yes, and before you go oh well 1.3 is close to 2 something, do the calculations

here are the R0 for covid-19 (current estimations) & flu
COVID-19 Airborne droplet 2.2-3.9
Flu 1.3

I will use 10, but whatever you want

flu 1.3 ^ 10 = 13.7858491849
covid-19 (low end) 2.2 ^ 10 = 2655.99227914
covid-19 (low end) 3.9 ^ 10 = 814040.608519

OK in reality it doesnt work like this as reality aint an equation and other factors can crop up, plus ppl can stop infecting etc, but what is real, covid-19 can spread magnitudes faster than flu

I still don't know if I have faith in the infected/fatalities data coming out of China.
Yeah I get the feeling they are trying to get production up and running ASAP as this will have long term consequences "maybe its not the best having all manufacturing in china"
 
Unless the infected is a gas station attendant, newspaper deliverer, cashier, etc... I would think handling credit cards might be problematic.
The number is an average. Some people will infect more, some less. The fact that some people have more interactions than others is baked in to the numbers already.
 
There's no logical reason to doubt the results in China.
March 4, 2020
However, that may not be as comforting as it looks, with a report from Wuhan that a man who died due to a coronavirus infection had earlier been discharged from hospital after recovering and testing negative. The report from Chinese media The Paper was later removed from the internet.

Another area of concern is the growing number of people infected with the coronavirus coming to China. There had been 20 such cases through Wednesday, according to the statement from National Health Commission. The customs bureau reported on Wednesday that there had been 75 cases of confirmed novel coronavirus cases among inbound passengers as of March 3. It is unknown why the two numbers are different.

Mistrust lingers over China’s official statistics, which have been repeatedly revised through the course of the outbreak, including an extraordinary addition of nearly 15,000 cases of infection on Feb. 13. It’s also changed the definition of what is a confirmed case of infection multiple times.
...
This means that provinces not counting asymptomatic cases in their official tally are likely under-reporting their numbers. There’s some evidence of that: Chinese media outlet Caixin reported that Heilongjiang province in northern China had 104 asymptomatic infections which it did not add to its total of 480 confirmed cases on Feb. 25.

China does not release the number of asymptomatic infections in its daily nationwide tally, underscoring the uncertainty over whether the outbreak is truly contained at its heart.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-in-china-slows-drastically-but-doubt-remains
 
Okay, if not trusting the Chinese numbers to be exact, we can't be sure they are. But the numbers for Wuhan, unless fictitious and hundreds of people dying aren't being counted, show the reduced incident rate over time.

And this stands to reason. Infection can't pass to new bodies if there's no contact. People flying into the country with the disease will spread it meaning yes, there could be more cases across China. However, if those infected are isolated, it will die out.

The numbers are all correct, but just measuring different things. eg.

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%," Fauci and colleagues write."

That's absolutely true, likely less than 1% of people with a SARS-CoV-2 infection in China in that period was dying. If you look at it that way, it's no biggie. But then when you look at the other numbers, 15% of people developing complications that need treatment, and the finite capacity for hospitals to treat people, you see that if too many people get sick too quickly, they won't get the necessary treatment and there will be more fatalities.

I'll run you the stats from the UK again, assuming you trust those numbers.

It's presently 273 confirmed cases. Yesterday it was 244. Two days ago, 209. 164 before that. That's an average growth of about 20%, although one could be more optimistic and call it 12-13% ballpark figures. There have been three deaths, so 1%, and that's not counting the hundreds of unreported infections. That doesn't sound so bad. At 12% growth, that 273 cases will become 2633 cases by the end of the month and 400 people needing hospital treatment. The following month, if the growth isn't curbed, that'll be up to 80,000 with 11,000 people needing medical care - the hospitals won't be able to cope, not just with the Covid19 treatments but also other usual medical concerns. There won't be enough treatment possibilities to save those at risk, increasing the mortality rate. By the end of May, 350,000 people will have needed medical treatment (from 2.25 million infected). And to finish off, by June, everyone will have had the infection, and those 10 million who developed complications will be largely starved of medical treatment. Those aren't just the elderly (a cold argument could be made to let them die off and reduce the economic burden of unproductive members) but also younger people with other conditions such as kids battling with cancer with a good prognosis of recovery but who'll succumb to the added stress of a Covid19 infection.

That's why measures are being considered to slow the spread. In and of itself, Covid isn't a killer-doom disease. It won't knock out entire civilisations and break our food supplies or anything. However, if left to progress unchecked, it will eventually affect many thousands, if not millions, of people who will die without medical treatment and who can't get medical treatment because there are too many people needing it all at once. By taking the disease seriously and limiting it's spread, it's mortality rate can be kept more at the 1% than the 5+% it could be. By comparisons with other diseases, some spread faster but don't have as high mortality, so it doesn't matter so much if they spread, while others kill far more people but don't spread so quickly or widely. Covid19 sits in a middle-ground making it very dangerous*.

* Depending on your definition. For some, 'dangerous' means to them and their family, and if young and healthy, they may consider the threat overblown and not be in favour of measures that impact their QOL for the health and welfare of people they have nothing to do with and don't care about.

Edit: As a personal perspective, I've never taken notice of any of the previous 'OMG we're all gonna die' diseases. Swine Flu, SARS, flesh eating bugs, etc., headlining newspapers were just scare-mongering. Coronavirus is the first I've taken seriously having looked at the numbers myself. At first I didn't think was a huge concern when you think 90% aren't going to be that bothered by it, but when you follow the data to the logical conclusions, and think about all the people you know with medical conditions or elderly relatives and the like, you realise there's a very real potential here for very real suffering and a huge scale. Not just the illness, but the fallout as well. Poor people deprived of medical treatment might end up turning on rich folk paying for private health care, for example. Not to mention moronisms - two youths in the UK beat up some Chinese saying they didn't want Coronavirus in this country.
 
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The numbers are all correct, but just measuring different things. eg.

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%," Fauci and colleagues write."

That's absolutely true, likely less than 1% of people with a SARS-CoV-2 infection in China in that period was dying. If you look at it that way, it's no biggie. But then when you look at the other numbers, 15% of people developing complications that need treatment, and the finite capacity for hospitals to treat people, you see that if too many people get sick too quickly, they won't get the necessary treatment and there will be more fatalities.

One thing that doesn't take into account is that there's no way to test every person who has died since the outbreak, so there's most likely quite a few dead who did die to symptoms caused by COVID-19 but never seeked help for it especially in China.
 
I dont know what to believe

This doesn't contradict anything, does it ? They guesstimate the number of infected to be much higher than those tested positive.

What is clear from their findings is that 6% of confirmed positives are hospitalized, around 5% end up in intensive care, 2.3% end up on ventilators and 1.4% die. If you have a severe disease, quadruple the numbers. If you exhaust your intensive care capacity, mortality will increase.

Cheers
 
Okay, if not trusting the Chinese numbers to be exact, we can't be sure they are. But the numbers for Wuhan, unless fictitious and hundreds of people dying aren't being counted, show the reduced incident rate over time.
OK of course there could be a lot of ppl missed in china, esp since they were dealing with something they never knew about (but one can retroactively test for it, I think)
I'm betting we will see higher numbers in Italy than in China, how can that be? Italy had foreknowledge, china didnt, true china is authoritarianist, which helps with the response, but china didnt do anything until after a month (or did they? :mrgreen:) But in an unprepared city of 10 million to have less than 1% of the population catching this seems a bit unbelievable, but who knows?

china
1-dec-19 1 person
... government doing nothing until 6-jan-20
16-1-20 45 people

italy
5-feb-20 2 people
... government doing stuff and ppl know about the disease
8-mar-20 7375 people

Its almost as if they were 2 different diseases.
based on the above data, I can conclude the best response is for the government to do nothing, and to keep the ppl unaware as possible.
 
china
1-dec-19 1 person
... government doing nothing until 6-jan-20
16-1-20 45 people

italy
5-feb-20 2 people
... government doing stuff and ppl know about the disease
8-mar-20 7375 people

Its almost as if they were 2 different diseases.

Or a manufactured disease intended to affect other races more than the Chinese...

*wraps additional layer of tinfoil around head*

At least I'll be fine. My fortune cookie said so. Ahem. Oh dear.
 
OK of course there could be a lot of ppl missed in china, esp since they were dealing with something they never knew about (but one can retroactively test for it, I think)
I'm betting we will see higher numbers in Italy than in China, how can that be? Italy had foreknowledge, china didnt, true china is authoritarianist, which helps with the response, but china didnt do anything until after a month (or did they? :mrgreen:) But in an unprepared city of 10 million to have less than 1% of the population catching this seems a bit unbelievable, but who knows?

Its almost as if they were 2 different diseases.
based on the above data, I can conclude the best response is for the government to do nothing, and to keep the ppl unaware as possible.
China started with (probably) 1 person getting the disease from an animal (i.e. they actually started with 1 case). Italy will have had it introduced multiple times in different locations.
 
china
1-dec-19 1 person
... government doing nothing until 6-jan-20
16-1-20 45 people
You're missing the thousands of people in between. Also, wasn't the Chinese response to have empty streets? What little I've seen, Wuhan has been an effective ghost town. That would do it. The disease doesn't spreading lightning fast, so I think the numbers represent a realistic picture. Early spread saw some cases, the reaction wasn't significant. Then when it became apparent Covid19 was a problem, the quarantining began. Incubation period infections kept the numbers rising, but once the previously infected had passed through, there weren't newly infected to carry on the disease. That's how disease work and why there's talk of a 'peak'.

Once Italy empties its streets and people don't go anywhere, new case counts will fall.
 
That's 9 days after Coronavirus spreading was clearly a problem. You're suggesting here Sony cancelled PS Meeting 21+ days in advance, before sending out invites, and with Coronavirus not posing as a pandemic. That make no sense to me.

The outbreak has been a threat to supply chains of everything that goes through China (which is.. well, everything) since early January. Many companies have been scrambling release dates since then.
This could mess even with streaming video announcements.


I'm not so sure Sony wouldn't have cancelled a public event either. The MWC was cancelled February 12. If Sony had an event planned for late February, at that point they'd be on time to not even send the invites.
 
A lot of people got no symptoms or very mild and they go not diagnosed... (actually since 10 days I'm also experimenting some mild symptoms, no fewer, could be normal flu)... they don't go into statistics... So it may be real mortality is around 1%... that is anyway 5 times more than normal flu.

Okay, if not trusting the Chinese numbers to be exact, we can't be sure they are. But the numbers for Wuhan, unless fictitious and hundreds of people dying aren't being counted, show the reduced incident rate over time.

And this stands to reason. Infection can't pass to new bodies if there's no contact. People flying into the country with the disease will spread it meaning yes, there could be more cases across China. However, if those infected are isolated, it will die out.

The numbers are all correct, but just measuring different things. eg.

"If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%," Fauci and colleagues write."

That's absolutely true, likely less than 1% of people with a SARS-CoV-2 infection in China in that period was dying. If you look at it that way, it's no biggie. But then when you look at the other numbers, 15% of people developing complications that need treatment, and the finite capacity for hospitals to treat people, you see that if too many people get sick too quickly, they won't get the necessary treatment and there will be more fatalities.

I'll run you the stats from the UK again, assuming you trust those numbers.

It's presently 273 confirmed cases. Yesterday it was 244. Two days ago, 209. 164 before that. That's an average growth of about 20%, although one could be more optimistic and call it 12-13% ballpark figures. There have been three deaths, so 1%, and that's not counting the hundreds of unreported infections. That doesn't sound so bad. At 12% growth, that 273 cases will become 2633 cases by the end of the month and 400 people needing hospital treatment. The following month, if the growth isn't curbed, that'll be up to 80,000 with 11,000 people needing medical care - the hospitals won't be able to cope, not just with the Covid19 treatments but also other usual medical concerns. There won't be enough treatment possibilities to save those at risk, increasing the mortality rate. By the end of May, 350,000 people will have needed medical treatment (from 2.25 million infected). And to finish off, by June, everyone will have had the infection, and those 10 million who developed complications will be largely starved of medical treatment. Those aren't just the elderly (a cold argument could be made to let them die off and reduce the economic burden of unproductive members) but also younger people with other conditions such as kids battling with cancer with a good prognosis of recovery but who'll succumb to the added stress of a Covid19 infection.

That's why measures are being considered to slow the spread. In and of itself, Covid isn't a killer-doom disease. It won't knock out entire civilisations and break our food supplies or anything. However, if left to progress unchecked, it will eventually affect many thousands, if not millions, of people who will die without medical treatment and who can't get medical treatment because there are too many people needing it all at once. By taking the disease seriously and limiting it's spread, it's mortality rate can be kept more at the 1% than the 5+% it could be. By comparisons with other diseases, some spread faster but don't have as high mortality, so it doesn't matter so much if they spread, while others kill far more people but don't spread so quickly or widely. Covid19 sits in a middle-ground making it very dangerous*.

* Depending on your definition. For some, 'dangerous' means to them and their family, and if young and healthy, they may consider the threat overblown and not be in favour of measures that impact their QOL for the health and welfare of people they have nothing to do with and don't care about.

Edit: As a personal perspective, I've never taken notice of any of the previous 'OMG we're all gonna die' diseases. Swine Flu, SARS, flesh eating bugs, etc., headlining newspapers were just scare-mongering. Coronavirus is the first I've taken seriously having looked at the numbers myself. At first I didn't think was a huge concern when you think 90% aren't going to be that bothered by it, but when you follow the data to the logical conclusions, and think about all the people you know with medical conditions or elderly relatives and the like, you realise there's a very real potential here for very real suffering and a huge scale. Not just the illness, but the fallout as well. Poor people deprived of medical treatment might end up turning on rich folk paying for private health care, for example. Not to mention moronisms - two youths in the UK beat up some Chinese saying they didn't want Coronavirus in this country.
Yes this is the situation.
Today's statistics are made with patients getting the best treatments... very soon that will not more possible. In the region lombardia in Italy they actually don't fully treat people older than 60 years old (that's what I know).

You're missing the thousands of people in between. Also, wasn't the Chinese response to have empty streets? What little I've seen, Wuhan has been an effective ghost town. That would do it. The disease doesn't spreading lightning fast, so I think the numbers represent a realistic picture. Early spread saw some cases, the reaction wasn't significant. Then when it became apparent Covid19 was a problem, the quarantining began. Incubation period infections kept the numbers rising, but once the previously infected had passed through, there weren't newly infected to carry on the disease. That's how disease work and why there's talk of a 'peak'.

Once Italy empties its streets and people don't go anywhere, new case counts will fall.
Will take 15 days to invert the trend....
 
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never been a fan of usa politics -conservative-republican, who cares, it's all about right, and they call it democracy-, also dislike the situation of the usa right now 'cos of....many things. But this is something extraordinary in such a country where if you dont have money you die earlier than others. This reminds me of the times when only the rich could study 'cos they could pay their studies, and there were thousands of more intelligent people taht were poor but couldn't study
 
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