AMD's "freesync" could come to next gen consoles?

[Rangers]

Well, I'll believe it when I see it, but this sounds neat...

Freesync is AMD's "free" Gsync alternative tech, though I'm still fuzzy on the details (not sure how it can be anywhere near as good as Gsync for free and without expensive additional hardware)

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7641/amd-demonstrates-freesync-free-gsync-alternative-at-ces-2014

In our review I was pretty pleased with G-Sync. I’d be even more pleased if all panels/systems supported it. AMD’s “FreeSync” seems like a step in that direction (and a sensible one too that doesn’t require any additional hardware). If variable VBLANK control is indeed integrated into all modern AMD GPUs, that means the Xbox One and PS4 should also have support for this. Given G-Sync’s sweet spot at between 40 - 60 fps, I feel like “FreeSync” would be a big win for AMD’s APUs.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Freesync is AMD's "free" Gsync alternative tech, though I'm still fuzzy on the details (not sure how it can be anywhere near as good as Gsync for free and without expensive additional hardware)

The additional hardware aspect was always confusing to me. All you need is a display that will wait for the refresh signal from the source. As long as the GPU is in control of the display refresh, which would only need a synchronisation signal protocol (musical instruments have had this for decades), there's nothing magical about variable, synchronised refresh. To work, it only needs display manufacturers and graphics vendors to come up with a standard that they'll support.

 

[pcchen]

The additional hardware aspect was always confusing to me. All you need is a display that will wait for the refresh signal from the source. As long as the GPU is in control of the display refresh, which would only need a synchronisation signal protocol (musical instruments have had this for decades), there's nothing magical about variable, synchronised refresh. To work, it only needs display manufacturers and graphics vendors to come up with a standard that they'll support.

I'm not sure about DVI or later digital interface, but for older analog connections, it's indeed possible to change vertical blanking period (as the magnets in a CRT takes time to "realign"). Of course, CRT's phosophors can't keep its colors for very long time, so it's impractical to delay vertical blank for too long, or the display will start flickering. TFT however shouldn't have such problem.

 

[pjbliverpool]

The reasons have been detailed in the latest couple of posts in the freesync thread.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=64785&page=3

Looks like a non-starter on current discrete displays and from the sounds of it, displays either need to introduce variable refresh rate scalers or Display Port 3 needs to become a standard.

I may be wrong but I don't think the consoles support DP3 and the introduction of TV's with variable refresh scalers seems to be unlikely (at best) in the near future given there's no real drive towards in even in the monitor space at present.

So in conclusion I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for this to come to the current generation of consoles. Seems more realistic for the generation that follows.

 

[Rangers]

From that thread

Koduri did admit that NVIDIA deserved credit for seeing this potential use of the variable refresh feature and bringing it to market as quickly as they did. It has raised awareness of the issue and forced AMD and the rest of the display community to take notice. But clearly AMD's goal is to make sure that it remains a proprietary feature for as little time as possible.

As it stands today, the only way to get variable refresh gaming technology on the PC is to use NVIDIA's G-Sync enabled monitors and GeForce graphics cards. It will likely take until the ratification and release of DisplayPort 1.3 monitors before AMD Radeon users will be able to enjoy what I definitely believe is one of the best new technologies for PC gaming in years. AMD is hopeful it will happen in Q3 of 2014 but speed of integration has never been a highlight of the DisplayPort standard. NVIDIA definitely has an availability advantage with G-Sync but the question will be for how many months or quarters it will last.

So still hope for desktop (HDTV yay/nay?) maybe. But yeah not for a while I would imagine...

It does sound like maybe Nvidia got the ball rolling to where some standard will eventually come out. If manufacturers care about gamers enough.

 

[pjbliverpool]

Do consoles have display port (especially 1.3 compliant) outputs?

 

[Rangers]

Maybe they can add it in later like 360 added in HDMI? Not sure what would push them too, though.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I guess that's a no then! Unless I'm just being blind.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Maybe they can add it in later like 360 added in HDMI? Not sure what would push them too, though.

The hardware could add it, but I don't know how the software would support it unless it's in as standard now (API level draw calls that can be sync'd in future), which would be remarkably forward looking.

 

[DCid]

I guess that's a no then! Unless I'm just being blind.

You're not blind. All future announcements and presentations from AMD concerning their graphics card and cpus/apus will have nothing to do with the PS4 and X-One. Do not expect the new technologies from AMD to suddenly be implemented in your X-One or PS4. That's not going to happen. At this point... AMD has washed their hands clean of this new console generation.

 

[Globalisateur]

Have you seen this really interesting one month old article?

VESA adopts AMD’s FreeSync Proposal

On this article from hardware.fr (decent french website) they say they have sources that Vesa adopted the "DP1.2a Extend MSA Tmg Para AMD SCR" which was already proposed on November 2013.

So from now on, TVs makers can integrate (it's optional) DisplayPort 1.2a with AMD timing parameter ignore option which was described in a previous hardware.fr article as:

Summary
Extend the "MSA TIMING PARAMETER IGNORE" option to DisplayPort to enable source based control of the frame rate similar to embedded DisplayPort.

Intellectual property rights
N/A

Benefits as a result of changes
This enables the ability for external DisplayPort to take advantage of the option to ignore MSA timing parameter and have the sink slave to source timing to realize per frame dynamic refresh rate.

Assessment of the impact
The proposed change enable per frame dynamic refresh rate for single stream devices that expose dynamic refresh rate capability in EDID for DisplayPort interface. The source will be able to enable this with an SST interface or MST hub with physical ports. Logical MST port support of the feature is not included as part of this SCR. A generic framework to enable such feature for logical port is required that can accommodate other feature where stream related configuration is programmed in DPCD.

Analysis of the device software implication
SST device which support "MSA TIMING PARAMETER IGNORE" option will be able to expose the capability in EDID and DPCD to let source enable dynamic refresh rate.
Source driver would have to be updated to parse EDID and enable "MSA TIMING PARAMETER IGNORE" feature when source want the sink to be refreshed based on its update rate.

Analysis of the compliance test and interop implications
Currently this feature is tested as part of eDP CTS. New test would have to be added as part of DP LL CTS and EDID CTS.

From what I had understood from the first freesync demo AMD gpu cards have dynamic refresh rate since 3 generations:

a feature that AMD has had in its graphics chips "for three generations": dynamic refresh rates

Now the real question is: what generations of AMD cards are they talking about? laptop only GPU cards or all AMD cards?. Because the latter would mean freesync enabled for all next gen consoles with a compatible freesync monitor.

Even Wii U.

 

[Rurouni]

Isn't this only for display port and not hdmi/dvi? Can freesync be used through hdmi?

 

[Davros]

The additional hardware aspect was always confusing to me.

Nvidia isnt against adding hardware that is unnecessary tech wise, but as a tool to maintain proprietary -ness and for business reasons. Remember According to nvidia Sli wasnt possible unless mboard makers included a $20-30 chip on every board, but when it became clear only 1 company (asus ?) was prepared to buy this chip the requirement suddenly disappeared. To be replaced with a "give us some money and we'll tell our drivers not to block sli on your boards"

 

[Globalisateur]

AMD FreeSync is now called Adaptative-Sync and is officially launched.

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/2014/05/12/vesa-adds-adaptive-sync-displayport-1-2-standard/

- Potential ranges include 36-240Hz, 21-144Hz, 17-120Hz and 9-60Hz
- Only those AMD GPUs are compatible: R9 290X, R9 290, R7 260X and R7 260 and all “Kabini,” “Temash,” “Beema,” and “Mullins" products.
- Adaptative-Sync monitors are being made:

Monitor vendors are now integrating the DisplayPort™ Adaptive-Sync specification and productizing compatible displays. AMD is working closely with these vendors to bring products to market, and we expect compatible monitors within 6-12 months.

So apparently it will not be compatible with PS4 & XB1 GPUs.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Isn't this only for display port and not hdmi/dvi? Can freesync be used through hdmi?

From the VESA adoption...

Analysis of the device software implication
SST device which support "MSA TIMING PARAMETER IGNORE" option will be able to expose the capability in EDID and DPCD to let source enable dynamic refresh rate.
Source driver would have to be updated to parse EDID and enable "MSA TIMING PARAMETER IGNORE" feature when source want the sink to be refreshed based on its update rate.

HDMI devices can read EDID, so the display just has to be updated to be able to parse the codes required from EDID as well as having the hardware to enable variable refresh.

All current generation AMD graphics devices can support it. It's up to the display manufacturer's now to include support for it.

Regards,
SB

 

[kalelovil]

AMD FreeSync is now called Adaptative-Sync and is officially launched.

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/2014/05/12/vesa-adds-adaptive-sync-displayport-1-2-standard/

- Potential ranges include 36-240Hz, 21-144Hz, 17-120Hz and 9-60Hz
- Only those AMD GPUs are compatible: R9 290X, R9 290, R7 260X and R7 260 and all “Kabini,” “Temash,” “Beema,” and “Mullins" products.
- Adaptative-Sync monitors are being made:

So apparently it will not be compatible with PS4 & XB1 GPUs.

Those are only the first supported products, it does not rule out the feature being expanded to other existing products.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1846509&postcount=133

 

[pjbliverpool]

Those are only the first supported products, it does not rule out the feature being expanded to other existing products.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1846509&postcount=133

Regardless of whether the GPU's and drivers support the capability in the consoles, surely they're automatically excluded by the lack of a Displayport connection?

 

[kalelovil]

Regardless of whether the GPU's and drivers support the capability in the consoles, surely they're automatically excluded by the lack of a Displayport connection?

True for the current console hardware on the market, but so long as Sony/Microsoft did not neuter the GCN display controllers then it should be possible to include a Displayport output in future hardware revisions.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Regardless of whether the GPU's and drivers support the capability in the consoles, surely they're automatically excluded by the lack of a Displayport connection?

Displayport isn't required. Just the ability for the graphics card to read the EDID and the GPU to support variable refresh, AFAIK. The EDID can be read over HDMI. And I'm assuming since DP 1.2a can support variable refresh when it didn't exist that their HDMI port will be able to as well.

In other words, there's no reason that anything supported in DP when the card launched isn't also supported in HDMI when the card launched. The one barrier is that there isn't a standard associated with it as of yet on the HDMI front, so display manufacturers might be reluctant to make a display that features it over HDMI. Just in case a future standard for HDMI for some reason isn't the same as the standard established for DP.

Regards,
SB

 

[user542745831]

As also mentioned in the other thread, in one of their latest videos, AMD has announced LFC (Low Framerate Compensation) and bringing FreeSync to HDMI in 2016, see:

Let's hope this will allow the PS4 and Xbox One (which both have a AMD GPU with HDMI output) to enable FreeSync over HDMI and encourage TV manufacturers to start supporting FreeSync in their TVs, either via developing new TVs or enabling it for existing TVs via firmware updates :smile2:.

Now that would be incredible!