The problems and irritations with finding a new job...

[Frank]

@Ty: while you and many others might not agree, you're not in charge. And the people who are, made a perfectly clear law about it, and defended it in public.

If they tell you that you're part of the people who're going to execute it, what are you to say or do?


@I.S.T.: Well, the large group in the example would be the US. And it does exist as a group with a common mind. That's the whole point of it.

You might not agree with some or even most of it, but you still consider yourself part of that group. It's about consensus.


@Silent_Buddha: I do agree that this thread has crossed RPSC territory, and definitely will land there if I was to answer your post.


Can I ask you guys a question? Are you right-wing, don't believe in a government above the bare essentials and think a free market economy would solve most of the problems?

And how would you react to some group labelling Bush Jr. a war criminal, capturing him, putting him in a bottle and displaying him as such?

 

[Ty]

@Ty: while you and many others might not agree, you're not in charge. And the people who are, made a perfectly clear law about it, and defended it in public.

What law is this you refer to?

If they tell you that you're part of the people who're going to execute it, what are you to say or do?

Not do it. Is it really that hard to comprehend? If your Cabinet and Queen tell you to people randomly, you would do it?

@I.S.T.: Well, the large group in the example would be the US. And it does exist as a group with a common mind. That's the whole point of it.

You might not agree with some or even most of it, but you still consider yourself part of that group. It's about consensus.

These statements are pure nonsense. We here in B3D land could easily be considered a group and yet our very participation in this thread disproves your 'common mind' hypothesis.

@Silent_Buddha: I do agree that this thread has crossed RPSC territory, and definitely will land there if I was to answer your post.

It already ventured there some time ago. The mods should probably move it.

Can I ask you guys a question? Are you right-wing, don't believe in a government above the bare essentials and think a free market economy would solve most of the problems?

Why in the world would you even think of asking such a leading, loaded question? You didn't even bother to answer *any* of mine. Tell us, do you beat your wife?

And how would you react to some group labelling Bush Jr. a war criminal, capturing him, putting him in a bottle and displaying him as such?

Depends on who the group was and if I acknowledged their authority. The UN? Sure, try him at the Hague.

 

[John Reynolds]

Exactly. He seems to be under the impression we all think the same, which makes no logical sense whatsoever. No one large group thinks exactly the same about everything. It's just simple logic.

In fairness, he's been doing this for years. So at least he's consistent.

 

[Sonic]

Come on dude, you know most of us are on the left with a few moderates and rare to have those more on the right. Especially when it comes to social issues, less so with economic.

But agreed, can a mod dissect this thread and take the RPSC part to RPSC forum?

 

[Frank]

In fairness, he's been doing this for years. So at least he's consistent.

Nah, I mostly like strong examples, that go for an emotional response.

And they're mostly demanding me to change it in something more PC because they are offended by it. Which was partly the intend. And I'm not going to do that, so I sidetrack and make fun of it.

 

[Frank]

What law is this you refer to?

This one.

Not do it. Is it really that hard to comprehend? If your Cabinet and Queen tell you to people randomly, you would do it?

Unless it's your job, like you're in the military. But I agree.

These statements are pure nonsense. We here in B3D land could easily be considered a group and yet our very participation in this thread disproves your 'common mind' hypothesis.

Agreed. And "leftish", as Sonic said.

Why in the world would you even think of asking such a leading, loaded question? You didn't even bother to answer *any* of mine. Tell us, do you beat your wife?

Well, you didn't bother to answer mine, either.

And no, I wouldn't beat my wife, puppies, or whatever. I'm a softy.

Depends on who the group was and if I acknowledged their authority. The UN? Sure, try him at the Hague.

Ok, thanks. But the US has veto power in the UN, so it's moot.

 

[Davros]

Is it really that hard to comprehend? If your Cabinet and Queen tell you to people randomly, you would do it?

Yes it is really that hard to comprehend wtf is "people randomly"

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I come back from a few days playing W40K: Retribution for this. So, lets see how generic I can make things and then I'll be leaving this thread for good.

Can I ask you guys a question? Are you right-wing, don't believe in a government above the bare essentials and think a free market economy would solve most of the problems?

Everyone has their opinion about what role government should play. The founders of the USA left Europe to get away from big governement. Thus the constitution of this nation specifically spells out the powers the Federal government is to hold. Follow so far?

Now here's the part you evidently don't get. Those powers not vested in the Federal government are to be held by the States of the Union. Each state can thus better serve and create legislation pertinent to their constituency. What people want in California might be quite different that what people want in Idaho for example.

Now what part of that implies "bare essentials" for government.

Short version. Federal Government is limited by the constitution. State Government makes laws relevant to its territory.

Unfortunately, the Federal Government has increasingly stolen the power of the various State governements and taken on powers not granted to it by the Constitution or the people.

And how would you react to some group labelling Bush Jr. a war criminal, capturing him, putting him in a bottle and displaying him as such?

And who would do that? Considering he was only doing what the UN was supposed to have done YEARS prior if the UN had followed its own mandates. Unfortunately, in order to appease terrorists and dictators (as well as to keep those lucrative oil deals for the French and Germans) they were more than willing to look the other way and allow Iraq to violate UN sanctions over and over like like a little slave bitch.

They give nations with rampant human rights abuses seats on the UN Human Rights council? How ridiculous is that? There was a time when I thought the UN was essential, but it's far too decadent to serve a purpose until it's cleaned up, IMO. And I'm not saying the US should do it. We've done enough.

As well, funnily enough, as much as I dislike Bush, many of the things the Bush administration was hoping would happen following the Iraq invasion has come around. There's increasing calls for representation by the people in various countries in the Middle East. Will any of them actually lead to a democracy? Hard to say since Democracy hasn't really ever existed in the Muslim world.

Iran had a chance but failed, but there might still be progress going on there. Egypt looks like it has a decent chance with many women in the movement pushing out the old regime. Libya is in full on revolt against an oppressive dictatorship (that the UN, and many on the Left absolutely loved).

Anyways, this thread is so far off topic now, that I'm just going to bow out. BTW - before you ask. I'm an independant. Fiscally conservative, but liberal on many social views as long as the Federal Government leaves it's meddlesome fingers out of it and stops fucking everything up for everyone. States can do well enough for their constituency.

Regards,
SB

 

[Davros]

The founders of the USA left Europe to get away from big governement.

No they didnt....

 

[Frank]

@Silent_Buddha ea.:

You seem to think, that the US rules all, and rightfully so. While Ty allows the overruling by higher authority, the link I posted (and the veto rights the US holds) clearly shows that the concept of higher authority is not only foreign to them, but that they will make sure it never happens.

What you're saying mostly boils down to: we have our views, and by God, make sure you stick to them. Because we are Right, and hold the Big Stick, in case you might have some doubts about it.

That's not very democratic, is it? But it is comparable to a free market economy, as that encourages the players to become like dictators in a politically correct way.

 

[Frank]

To get back on track:

I have been working there for a week now, and I learned very much about wafer steppers. In short: lithography isn't the primary bottleneck, and just about everything <= 32 nm is and will be made on a wafer stepper form ASML. The main problems are in the chemicals, strength of the resulting materials, and the component libraries (like: how do you design a FET or gate on that scale that actually functions, while quantum tunnelling is the main driving force for electron movement).

And all of the parts of the initial scope of my project have changed significantly or have been replaced by now. At the moment, I'm mostly trying to make a new scope and design, that can be approved by most participants. Which is great fun, but a little scary as well. Because I never know what is actually expected from me, and/or appreciated.

Things are very fluid around here. Which is great, but I do want to deliver that project, in time and budget, to satisfaction. And I think I might want to (and should!) change those goals some more, the more I learn. To be more in line with the expectations of my boss, the project manager and all other participants.

 

[MfA]

There is a fair amount of wishfull thinking on ASML's part there ... saying lithography isn't the bottleneck when it's behind schedule on EUV and Intel has had huge success with independently developed advantages (first double patterning, now chromeless masks). If lithography wasn't a bottleneck there wouldn't even be double patterning.

 

[I.S.T.]

@Silent_Buddha ea.:

You seem to think, that the US rules all, and rightfully so. While Ty allows the overruling by higher authority, the link I posted (and the veto rights the US holds) clearly shows that the concept of higher authority is not only foreign to them, but that they will make sure it never happens.

What you're saying mostly boils down to: we have our views, and by God, make sure you stick to them. Because we are Right, and hold the Big Stick, in case you might have some doubts about it.

That's not very democratic, is it? But it is comparable to a free market economy, as that encourages the players to become like dictators in a politically correct way.

You seem to have disconnected from reality long, long ago. While I disagree with SB, his argument is far more nuanced than what you give him credit for.

 

[Frank]

There is a fair amount of wishfull thinking on ASML's part there ... saying lithography isn't the bottleneck when it's behind schedule on EUV and Intel has had huge success with independently developed advantages (first double patterning, now chromeless masks). If lithography wasn't a bottleneck there wouldn't even be double patterning.

Yes, EUV is definitely still challenging. The main parts are the light source (I'm not sure if I can tell how the current one works) as there's no known source that only supplies the requested frequency, like a laser, and so you have to filter upwards of 90% of the light out and need a much beefier one than every available ones, the focussing (forget about lenses, and even mirrors only work partially, and so have to be stacked), and the really tight calibrations that depend on thousands of interlocked parts.

But while Intel still does independent development, that new plant they're building will be filled with machines they buy from ASML, AFAIK. (If I knew it precisely I would probably not be allowed to say so.)

 

[Frank]

You seem to have disconnected from reality long, long ago. While I disagree with SB, his argument is far more nuanced than what you give him credit for.

I think the main difference is in the point of view. While I do agree it's nuanced, it's more like the difference in operation between the US and Dutch forces in Iraq and Afghanistan: The US ones tend to shoot first, think later, while the Dutch ones try not to offend, go talk with the local leaders and help them come up with an acceptable solution and rebuild.

 

[MfA]

as there's no known source that only supplies the requested frequency, like a laser

Synchrotron radiation.

 

[Frank]

Synchrotron radiation.

Yes, that's about the only way. The trick is in how you're going to create and control it. And the current solution does work, although it's much slower than the lower-res ones. You get your wafers exposed, but relatively slowly.

While a ball of superheated plasma (millions of degrees) would work, how are you going to contain it? And it has to be outside the assembly, with a long light path. Compare it to a Tokamak, used in fusion.

A large linear accelerator (for the output needed) has comparable problems: it would dwarf the lithographic assembly in every way.

Both of those would require an even higher energy output, as they're continuous, while illumination only happens a relatively small part of the time.

You need to be able to put the right dose of luminance on your target, in strictly controlled bursts. While the radiation emitted is highly inconsistent and variant. (You only want a single, small slice of all the available radiation.) And "more or less" isn't cutting it.

So the focus is on creating small, but highly energetic pulses.

 

[MfA]

A single accelerator shared by multiple steppers might be an option ... shrug. Also even a low power coherent EUV beam might be useful ... amplification of laser light is generally easier than generation. It's far from a run race, I could see synchrotron radiation being used.

 

[Frank]

They're all like synchrotron radiation, as they all need an electron release at high power and -3e. Otherwise, it wouldn't contain EUV radiation.

If only we could come up with a source that would only emit that specific radiation, in controlled bursts.

Edit: I do agree that electric acceleration does sound like the best bet, but the machinery required is so very bulky and power hungry.

 

[nutball]

while the Dutch ones try not to offend, go talk with the local leaders and help them come up with an acceptable solution and rebuild.

And then get shot anyway. And/or go for the deal for top-dollar Afghan schmokes in the cafe back home.

Sorry Frank but your view of the world is naive at best, and weird at worst. Netherlands is historically one of the worst colonial offenders, and you can't make up for it by being nice.

Which you aren't, because in my experience the Dutch are up there with the Israelis and Swedes as topping the league for per capita sense of humour failure of all nations on Earth. Even Robert Mugabe is more fun on a night out.

And the Swedes fall far behind when it comes to arrogance - you Dutch and the Israelis are the most unpleasant and aggressive people I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. You are *worse* than the Yanks, French, Germans, and so on. Seriously.

None of this is to do with justifiying the actions of my nation over the years, however many years, just that you need to realise that nobody gives a shit and you, like us Brits, are a PITA with no redeeming features. Despire what you might like to think.