HTML5 on consoles

[Arwin]

That game is purely for touch UI since the main mechanic is to do a swipe.

You'd use a controller to run the browser in a console?

Game is 99 cents on iOS and free on Android isn't it?

Works fine with a mouse too Should they ever manage to get HTML5 working properly on 360 and PS3, then Kinect and Move would make fine interfaces for this game as well I reckon.

Anyway, it is very promising that this is running quite smoothly on Google Chrome, FireFox and Internet Explorer, as that seems to suggest that HTML5 is indeed a valid alternative for Flash at least for these types of games.

 

[Arwin]

Found some more stuff on the Vita's browser. Seems like it is reporting itself as webkit:

Mozilla/5.0 (Playstation Vita 1.50) AppleWebKit/531.22.8 (KHTML, like Gecko) Silk/3.2

Source: http://community.eu.playstation.com...-vita-web-browser-a-few-details/td-p/14477729

However, there are currently still several HTML5 features missing, such as sound etc.

If you compare the browser to the one running on Experia Play (which of course has Android behind it which is optimised to run and render browsers), then one of the things I'm guessing is that currently, the browser is set to a mode that preserves memory as much as possible. As you can seen, no framebuffer seems to be preserved beyond what is actually rendered on screen, which is why it needs to re-render everything all the time.

Check this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLq6GBfHaYY

As the browser is currently not yet runnable next to a game like some of the other apps, my guess is that Sony simply haven't made the decision yet whether or not to give the browser all the memory it wants, or make it run as light as possible but allow it to run next to games.

 

[patsu]

WebKit 531.22.8 is 2+ years old, around Chrome v3 (October 2009) according to wiki and here. Chrome is v18 now.

NetFront may have more modern WebKit according to:
http://www.netfront.com/products/mobile_solutions/netfrontbrowsernx.html (NetFront NX)
and
http://www.netfront.com/products/mobile_solutions/netfrontmobile/browser/index.html (NetFront v4.2)

Footprint-wise, NetFront NX needs:

[Memory Requirements]
ROM: 12MB (Browser engine only)
RAM: Less than 25MB (Depending on web content)

... whereas NetFront v4.2 needs:

[Memory Requirements]

ROM: 2MB-4MB (Kernel +SLIM)
RAM: 2MB- (Depending on complexity of content viewed)

Perhaps Vita is using an older version of NetFront v4.2. Supposedly, v4.2 has a new JavaScript engine that runs 20 times faster. v4.2's HTML5 support includes Video/Audio, Geolocation, and WebStorage.


EDIT:
There is also a PSP hack to enable high memory usage for the PSP NetFront web browser, so you don't generally run out of memory on PSP that easily anymore.


Sony should fix the web browser multitasking issue first, before upgrading the web browser. Even better if they allow us to use more memory if no other app is running.

EDIT 2:
If they can't have a unified browser for both low and high memory usage, they should get both. Use the full blown NetFront NX for seamless game integration with the web. Use NetFront v4.2 for simple browsing.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It appears PS3 can no longer even use Google. I get 'out of memory' errors, and ahve to use the search option in the XMB.

 

[patsu]

It's the JavaScripts on the result page. PS3 seems to run out of memory running them. You should be able to see the search result after turning JavaScript off. I don't know how much memory is allocated to the PS3 web browser. I thought DeanA implemented virtual memory support for the web browser a few years back (?).

Alternatively, you can use the Search menu in the web browser. Leave JavaScript on, press ^, and select "Search". It will use the result page without JavaScript (www.google.com/hws/search?client=sce-ps3-row&...)

Using the search item in XMB works the same way I think.



I have no idea why Google use JavaScripts to retrieve the search result. Perhaps it's more efficient for pagination, and/or may be it's one of their ways to prevent people from scrapping their search result.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The reasons are immaterial as a user. Joe Public goes onto the internet, fires up Google to find something, and it doesn't work. That there are workarounds is no comfort to them. As far as they are concerned (and me!), the browser is broked. All this talk of HTML5, yet the static nature of PS3's browser as it becomes more and more outdated doesn't support the view of HTML progression.

 

[patsu]

The reasons are immaterial as a user. Joe Public goes onto the internet, fires up Google to find something, and it doesn't work. That there are workarounds is no comfort to them. As far as they are concerned (and me!), the browser is broked.

Oh so true !

All this talk of HTML5, yet the static nature of PS3's browser as it becomes more and more outdated doesn't support the view of HTML progression.

Well, title is HTML5 for consoles. We know Vita and 3DS WebKit browsers are miles ahead of the PS3 web browser. We also know PS3 supports WebKit for app development. It's the web browser app that's not WebKit compliant at all.

The PS3 WebKit source was released on 2010-October, and then updated on 2011-March-31. Can't tell the WebKit version from the user agent string since Sony obscured it (Mozilla/5.0 (PLAYSTATION 3; 2.00)).

EDIT: Source is here...
http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/pub/

Looks like they added WebKit tests in May 2011. So there was indeed some progression.

These WebKit tests seem to indicate (partial) HTML5 support:

Alert
Audio
Forms
Video
ObjEmbed- Flash and Quicktime
ObjEmbed- Silverlight
Target links
Window open
Frames 2 - Look for crash here
UTF-8 Characters
Broken Image (404)- crash
Redirect
reload-subresource-when-type-changes
go-back-to-different-window-size
broken-ideograph-small-caps.html
string-replace-exception-crash.html
Cookie Test
Image types
WebDB
Local Storage
Session Storage
SVG Basic
SVG Animation
XHR
CSS3- Borders
CSS3 Transitions
CSS text effects
Selectors - multiples
Canvas- Draw
Canvas- Draw over image
Background
Iframe
Iframe (sandbox)
Frames

They could of course change their mind though. ^_^
Or may be the WebKit tests are meant for Vita.

 

[patsu]

Details on 3DS WebKit browser:
http://3dbrew.org/wiki/Internet_Browser

The 3DS Internet Browser was added in the June 2011 Update for JPN/EUR/USA.

From the Internet Browser help section: In compliance with the LGPL, the source code of the OSS is available via the Nintendo website. This source code can be downloaded here: [1]

The 3D Internet Browser is Netfront Browser NX v1.0 based on WebKit engine.

User-agent is : Mozilla/5.0 (Nintendo 3DS; U; ; fr) Version/1.7412.EU for a EUR/fr Nintendo 3DS

[Other interesting 3DS WebKit stats and tidbits...]

 

[patsu]

Interesting... based on the WebKit sources, PS3 is using a newer version of WebKit than 3DS and Vita. There are traces of early WebKit2 in the PS3 version (circa late 2010, early 2011).

It looks like 3DS is using an evolved 2008 - December 2009 version, and then enhanced with HTML5 goodies ? Vita seems to be late 2009-ish based on the WebKit user agent string. Also enhanced with HTML5 flavor.

 

[patsu]

[Speechless]

Folks. Check your PS3. Firmware Update 4.10. I have an inkling the WebKit web browser is finally here.
ACID3 score is 99/100 (Same score as Vita). Yes I just ran the test. ^_^

It was 27/100 before.

And JavaScript hasn't crashed yet. T_T

EDIT: I'll wait for someone else to confirm. Too busy right now. But sweet mother of God, it has been 6+ years in the waiting -- if true.

Google result page doesn't run out of memory now too.

 

[androvsky]

[Speechless]

Folks. Check your PS3. Firmware Update 4.10. I have an inkling the WebKit web browser is finally here.
ACID3 score is 99/100 (Same score as Vita). Yes I just ran the test. ^_^

It was 27/100 before.

And JavaScript hasn't crashed yet. T_T

EDIT: I'll wait for someone else to confirm. Too busy right now. But sweet mother of God, it has been 6+ years in the waiting -- if true.

Google result page doesn't run out of memory now too.

It's webkit. Check the about Playstation 3 in the System Settings menu on the XMB, or just go here: http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-license/index.html

edit: just played with an HTML5 drawing program on my PS3, kinda fun.

 

[patsu]

It's webkit. Check the about Playstation 3 in the System Settings menu on the XMB, or just go here: http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-license/index.html

edit: just played with an HTML5 drawing program on my PS3, kinda fun.

Grrr..... I want to leave right now. Yes, it's fun indeed ! Now, Sony, do more R&D on WebKit games + PS Home !

 

[androvsky]

Grrr..... I want to leave right now. Yes, it's fun indeed ! Now, Sony, do more R&D on WebKit games + PS Home !

If it helps any, a lot of HTML5 features are missing, most tragically the video tag, and the flash plugin still stinks. Google Docs refuses to even try to run, even after trying to sidestep their intergalactic law warning. No webgl either. But it's waaaaaay more stable.

 

[patsu]

Yeah, HTML5 media tag can come later. Not so important because those will be app-based (Like NetFlix apps). They are using object tag for the moment.

I don't know what's wrong with Google Docs.

But I suspect basic HTML5 app stuff like Local Storage, Canvas are already implemented (according to their released PS3 HTML5 test suite).

WebGL is already implemented on Xperia's web browser. It's the first cellphone that supports WebGL according to their blog.

EDIT:
Note that HTML5 is a heavily evolving platform. So even for media tags, there are new, on-going proposals. I'm looking at some of the new additions as we speak. Some of them are just too fluffy, IMHO of course.

 

[jonabbey]

Hats off to Jeff. ;-)

 

[jonabbey]

Interestingly, CNN.com now tells me that I'm coming from an International address, and would I like to make the international page my default.

My domain is very much in the US.. wonder if Sony's doing some kind of web proxying?

 

[oramay]

I just want to congratulate jeff_rigby. :smile: I don't have an account at neogaf but I think he has taken a lot of stick over his PS3 browser investigation. Some people seem to be angry at him for something I don't quite understand. Not that I understand the details he posted, but I guess it's vindication at last.

 

[Arwin]

Shock! But sounds like it is the exact same browser as on the Vita. That sounds both good and bad. Hopefully that doesn't mean it will needlessly gimp the Vita version, but in principle this is a massive improvement.

And hats off to Rigby, though I too predicted features from the Vita would likely make it to the PS3s firmware. Just didn't expect it so soon! But I guess it helps multi-platform releases like Motorstorm RC. Perhaps we'll get game pages like on Vita on PS3 too, as that would make a lot of sense.

Wonder if the new browser has different Move support. Probably not, but they could easily do that with the books they have in there for Vita's touch controls. EDIIT: Indeed not, works the same as before though with the browser being much better now, it does work much more smoothly.

Nevertheless, the improvement versus the old one is staggering, though of course that is partly because the old one was so bad.

 

[Xenus]

Oh so you mean it won't crash and hang every 10-15 mins under use?

It sounds like they really need to work out some deal with adobe for flash on both the PS3 and vita still though.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Hold your horses, people! Jeff wasn't amazing everyone with unrealistic predictions of an HTML5 web browser. If you asked anyone with reasonable knowledge what Sony would do with their web-browser, there was probably an even odds chance of Sony going with a webkit browser eventually, same as everyone else. Jeff was claiming a replacement of XMB with an HTML5 interface, and finding evidence for this in things like FW revision numbers. I suggest people reread this thread, although with Jeff's later edits removing his words it's not 100% historically accurate any more. But things like "Chrome for PS3" and "3D web player in Q1 2011" are just the first few predictions that haven't come to pass. One rather conventional prediction of a webkit browser isn't anything amazing. Kudos can be given for his very deep digging if you want to, but he dug up everything and not just relevant evidence so I can't do that myself.

Regards the actual update...Oooooo, I can now use Google!

This has taken me by surprise as I had thought Sony had given up, so this shows hope. YouTube still sucks (240p quality max) and the embedded device version doesn't format properly, while the new default PS page has gone to be replaced with the normal webpage, but if this in one unified browser then I expect updates to improve it. Is this the same browser on their Smart TVs? Google suggests they use Opera. Also why's the text-rendering and zoom so rubbish? That is, text is rendered at small size and zooming just pixelates it. Cell should be the ultimate monster of text rendering!

Edit: It's also dead slow. The default PlayStation home page renders about 1 fps. You can open more pages in this new browser, but it still seems about as useless as before.