Hybrid SLI dying?

[Extra411]

I investigated the downclocking issues some more just now, since it seems to me that was one of nvidia's primary methods of conserving power at idling for the GT200 cards.

Through experimenting from forum tips, I discovered that the GTX280 will not downclock to 2D speeds (301/602/100 down from 602/1296/1107):

1) if you have a second monitor connected to it and enabled
2) if Steam is running
3) if windows live messenger is running

On my PC, if any one of those three were active, the 280 will not downclock. Apparently there are other non-3D programs that will also trigger this problem.

Seems like they still need to work out some kinks in the driver.

 

[Davros]

does aero make the card run at 3d speed?

 

[ChrisRay]

It depends the driver you use. If a application makes a "DirectX" call. Then the card will kick into 3D. Some drivers ((180.8x)) will not do this. They will power up based on load. 181.xx drivers will load up any DirectX app. This is because people did not like the way Nvidia was lowering clocks in "Non GPU" load situations ((It occurs in games too if the GPU isnt loaded it isnt fully powered)). So the 181.xx drivers disable this. At least for now. But that's not a bug. Its by design.

I just ran MSN/Steam/Secondary Monitor with my GTX 295 and none of them triggered the 3D Clocks with the 185.20 drivers or the 180.8x drivers.

does aero make the card run at 3d speed?

No

 

[homerdog]

Through experimenting from forum tips, I discovered that the GTX280 will not downclock to 2D speeds (301/602/100 down from 602/1296/1107):

1) if you have a second monitor connected to it and enabled
2) if Steam is running
3) if windows live messenger is running

Thanks! Shut down Steam and my GTX260 finally downclocked! I thought something was borked with my system. 181.20

 

[Extra411]

I just ran MSN/Steam/Secondary Monitor with my GTX 295 and none of them triggered the 3D Clocks with the 185.20 drivers or the 180.8x drivers.

Ahh, I think I started having problems with downclocking since 170 something drivers; and I currently use 181.22. It's great news if they have fixed it in 185.20.

And yes, I do recall people having problems with the GT200 downclocking while playing a game with earlier drivers, which is not really acceptable. Again, that seems like a driver issue to me.

Edit: I just installed 185.20, and while steam/live messenger will allow downclocking now, a second monitor will still prevent the 280 from doing so. O well.

Thanks! Shut down Steam and my GTX260 finally downclocked! I thought something was borked with my system. 181.20

No problem, I thought that as well.

 

[ChrisRay]

I'm telling you. It's not a driver "issue". Future drivers for the time being will always throttle the GPU up in DirectX apps. This is how Nvidia intended the throttle system to work. 185.20 are an older build than 181.1x.

The GPU throttling down in games and any DirectX app was an actual feature in which Nvidia would base the power consumption on the actual GPU load and how much work it was getting. It was never broken. It was working as intended. Nvidia removed it ((and quite rashly IMO)) from feedback from forum users who complained that they wanted their card at full 3D all the time in any DirectX application. Hence why it is the way it is now.

 

[Extra411]

I'm telling you. It's not a driver "issue". Future drivers for the time being will always throttle the GPU up in DirectX apps. This is how Nvidia intended the throttle system to work. 185.20 are an older build than 181.1x.

The GPU throttling down in games and any DirectX app was an actual feature in which Nvidia would base the power consumption on the actual GPU load and how much work it was getting. It was never broken. It was working as intended. Nvidia removed it ((and quite rashly IMO)) from feedback from forum users who complained that they wanted their card at full 3D all the time in any DirectX application. Hence why it is the way it is now.

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that some people seemed to have experienced throttling that affected their 3D performance massively (a lot of slowdowns) with older drivers. Now, I can't be certain if it was because their cards were defective or because of the drivers (since I haven't personally experienced them), but if it's because of the drivers, then I'm pretty sure any kind of power saving feature isn't supposed to affect performance.

 

[ChrisRay]

I think you are misunderstanding me.. the downclocking during DirectX apps is not "Being fixed" in future drivers. The 185.20 drivers are infact an older set. Future drivers will kick into 3D performance mode when DirectX is activated. I am not gonna get into it because its a pet peeve of mine right now. But an awesome feature of the drivers, ((IE downclocking various parts of the 3D Core)) when its not being used regardless of whether a DirectX or 3D app is running was removed due to complaints. And Nvidia caved on the feature.

As such all future drivers for the time being will kick into 3D mode if they access DirectX such as Steam in this case. This feature was a boon for MMORPG players playing games like WoW, Vanguard, EQ 2, where the GPU spent alot of its time idling. Now they will run at full power all the time. You earlier implied that the drivers were not "quite" right yet due to the fact that it was kicking up in steam. And like I said. This is just the way it is as long as this tech is shut off for the time being. Its just not a bug. Its working as intended. It's a huge let down for me and I am disgruntled that Nvidia caved on the feature due to complaints. Especially when application's such as river tuner allowed it to be disabled. And for most part in my experience such a feature was completely transparent other than the tempatures generated while gaming.

Chris

 

[ChrisRay]

Btw. Sorry for the double post. I just wanted to point out that I have the driver team looking into Steam.exe fully accelerating the GPU clocks. It may be possible to have an application specifix fix for this.

 

[Extra411]

But an awesome feature of the drivers, ((IE downclocking various parts of the 3D Core)) when its not being used regardless of whether a DirectX or 3D app is running was removed due to complaints. And Nvidia caved on the feature.

But didn't they cave in on it BECAUSE it wasn't working correctly? I.e. it being active while certain games are being ran and causing uncalled for slowdowns?

The GPU throttling down in games and any DirectX app was an actual feature in which Nvidia would base the power consumption on the actual GPU load and how much work it was getting. It was never broken. It was working as intended.

You are basing your assessment on the precursor that the downclocking worked 100% previously, but that's not what I have gathered looking through the forums in various places. I'm sure the feature is wonderful IF it is work correctly, but there were many complaints that it was throttling when it shouldn't be, resulting in fps below 20 and such when it shouldn't. IF that was the case and the basis for the user complaints, then nvidia definitely SHOULD be disabling that feature until they could resolve all of the issues. It's always better to clear up any complaints of possible decreased performance than power saving, and I'm not entirely convinced that the users who complained don't have legitimate reasons for doing so.
Of course it's always possible that they are just complaining and the feature did work 100%, but it seems strange that enthusiasts who would buy GT200 cards wouldn't be able to tell that they weren't getting lower performance when throttling was working as intended.

 

[ChrisRay]

Nope. In all the feedback threads. With the new drivers, People couldn't provide reproducable examples of problem. But people wanted their clock rates. I'm very familiar with the issue and I was the one who communicated it mostly with Nvidia and the users. They caved simply because users did not like their cards down throttling in 3D apps. I couldn't reproduce it and neither could Nvidia. You are assuming it was taken out due to the fact that it was causing problem. It was taken out due to demand of people not wanting their cards throttling down. There's a big thread about it at nvnews.

The complaint was that it caused "stuttering". Not that the cards would under perform. The cards do clock up and down as needed when under load. The issue was it apparently wasn't "transparent" enough. Dont confused 17x.xx drivers and 16x.xx drivers where it got disabled and turned on again. Where it didnt work properly. It was working well with early 18.x drivers. I am very familiar with this paticular issue.

Here is an example of where the feedback was extremely negative regardless of whether the feature was detrimental.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=122099

Again. Your quoting me out of context. You claimed that the drivers were not "complete" or working. Because they throttled up in apps like steam. That is not the case. They are not broken and they never were. Nvidia cant put an application specific fix into every app that makes DirectX calls and the current drivers throttling up whenever they are made is the net result of that change in the 18x.1x drivers. That is what I was quoting you on. And that is what the entire point of my subject was. What you are experiencing is perfectly normal due to Nvidia being unable to put an application fix into every application that makes DirectX calls.

Also you are operating under the assumption that Nvidia's power saving tech is just the reduction of clock rates. ((again discussing your original post)) this is also incorrect. More is done between the switch from 2D to 3D apps than just clocks.

 

[Extra411]

In that case I can share you sentiments.

Also, to make certain we don't have any misunderstanding:
1) I assumed the throttling only occured when a 3D program was ran, judging from the naming scheme of 2D/low 3D and performance 3D. I wasn't aware that a non-3D program like Steam/Live messenger can prevent downclocking due to directx calls, and had assumed it to be an error.
2) I'm also aware that parts of the card is being shut down as part of the power saving, in addition to downclocking.
3) I did assume there was performance issues from the throttling due to certain posts from forums I've seen. If there never was a problem, then I also think it was a mistake to have cut that feature.

 

[ChrisRay]

Yes you are correct there was a problem with the 17x.xx driver implementation. So it got shut off and retooled for the early 18.4x-18-8x in which it worked pretty well. Anyway its a pretty easy mistake to make because their were "two" implementation's of this feature. The second one worked alot better.

1) I assumed the throttling only occured when a 3D program was ran, judging from the naming scheme of 2D/low 3D and performance 3D. I wasn't aware that a non-3D program like Steam/Live messenger can prevent downclocking due to directx calls, and had assumed it to be an error.

NP nvidia said they are looking into the issue with steam. The quote I got was "Unusual App". Because it doesnt seem to happen on all steam systems. So basically they're looking into it.

The basic jist of it is. Before they shut this feature off. Apps like steam or DirectX calls woulda been a non issue. Now they are annoying ((as you have pointed out. And I sympathise here because its annoying to me as well)). The good news is. Its not out of the question for this feature to reappear again in future drivers. But at that point I have very little information currently. They may implement a switch which seem widely requested.

Chris

 

[homerdog]

Here is an example of where the feedback was extremely negative regardless of whether the feature was detrimental.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=122099

Some sample posts:

I think this feature is really stupid and pointless. What's the point of changing a clock? Like it's gonna save some power? It really doesn't matter cause we are not running freaking laptops but desktops powered by 700W+ power supplies I think we should have petition and send it to Nvidia to remove this feature from drivers.

i also dont like this "feature"... i think the best idea would be to include it as an option in the control panel so that we may turn it off if we choose to... i like to have my stuff at full clocks all the time so i dont have to worry if the proper clocks are being applied or if throttling is going on

Yes, choice would be good. I'd keep mine full throttle!

NVIDIA caved because of these users?!

Oh well an application specific fix for Steam would suffice for me. I always push my GPU to the max; if it's an old game like Max Payne I'll force as much supersampling as I can at 60FPS. From my understanding the old (correct) implementation only throttles based on GPU load (it's oblivious to the application running), so I would not be negatively impacted by doing this?

One more question: how does the GPU determine at which load level it should downclock? In other words, when does it say 'I'm wasted on this game, I can drop the clock by 300MHz'? Only when it's horribly CPU limited? Would an insanely high GPU limited framerate trigger a downclock as well?

 

[Davros]

Well chris since you have the ear of the driver team (ps: they'd like it back)
all i want is a profile
if game = crimson.exe export NONPOW2CONDITIONAL caps

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I hate you Davros. I really REALLY hate you.

Now I have a hankering to play Crimson Skies.

Bastard.

Regards,
SB

 

[ChrisRay]

Just thought I'd update you guys. Working with Nvidia and collecting user feedback. Nvidia now has made it "toggleable" in the drivers. So you can get "Full throttle clocks" all the time. or have them throttled based on GPU load.

Its in the release R190.38 drivers. I know these things take time. But Nvidia definately is listening to feedback. And I'm trying to make sure voices get heard.

 

[Sxotty]

Chris that is awesome to know thanks. I really appreciate it b/c as of now I have no AC in my computer area.

 

[trinibwoy]

I don't see the usefulness though. The adaptive option is just the default setting we have today. The other option maximizes performance and power consumption. There doesn't seem to be an option to force lower performance and power consumption than we have already.

 

[nicolasb]

I don't see the usefulness though. The adaptive option is just the default setting we have today. The other option maximizes performance and power consumption.

I get the impression it maximises power consumption while leaving performance unaffected....