Memory & Texture Mapping (types/formats/techniques/res) *Spin-off*

[MvmntInGrn]

One question, many have brought up the Big Daddy texture but what others are affected? Everything else looks pretty darn nice texture wise, I do not have the 360 version (though I can play the PC demo) but I just want to get an idea of how bad it is.

 

[Arwin]

I don't know. Are the levels in Uncharted that much smaller than in Bioshock? And you can travel them all the way back too - not that there's a point in doing so (except maybe some treasure hunting) but you can. And the argument you use, fully utilse the available texture memory, seems to be the wrong argument, because the whole point of texture streaming using the HDD as a large cache in Uncharted is that you remove much of this bottleneck. And the primary reason that Bioshock isn't using this I'm sure is because the game wasn't designed to work that way because it was designed to run on a HDD-less 360.

 

[betan]

Neverending texture resolution thread?

And the argument you use, fully utilse the available texture memory, seems to be the wrong argument, because the whole point of texture streaming using the HDD as a large cache in Uncharted is that you remove much of this bottleneck. And the primary reason that Bioshock isn't using this I'm sure is because the game wasn't designed to work that way because it was designed to run on a HDD-less 360.

It wouldn't be shocking if UDF utilizes resources better than Bioshock (and I'm pretty sure it does), but IIRC according to ND, primary advantage of HDD caching in Uncharted is not better texture memory usage, but stuff like audio sync etc.

 

[AlNom]

[strike]One moment[/strike]

Neverending texture resolution thread?

I'm not sure there's much to argue from 'better' or 'worse' & user opinions. Certainly, discussing various mapping techniques would be helpful to some though.

 

[Dural]

Didn't Uncharted have 2048x2048 resolution textures with up to 8 layers? (including reflective for wet effects etc)

And I really can't find very many repeat textures anywhere in the game, to be honest. That's one of its biggest strengths when it comes to textures. They are unique, high-res, and beautiful. I don't know about clever blending effects to create even more unique looking textures from less original data, but it doesn't look like they've done that a lot. In an interview Evan Wells also mentions that part of the reason the game wouldn't fit on DVD is the hi-res textures, which would have to be toned down (total game size is 22Gb, with no repeat data).

I could only find the way the texture streaming is handled on the PS3 in the tech-notes they released some time ago, streaming them from BluRay to HDD to memory, with memory defragmentation, a solution which allowed them to have much higher quality and varied textures, they claim, as well as being extremely easy to implement (they say it took them 3 days and that all developers should be using this technique on PS3)

One of the most overused screenshots to show off the textures of Uncharted has some quite obvious repeat textures. You may not notice them while playing, but they are there.

 

[joker454]

Uncharted has very sharp-looking textures, but in my best effort to be objective about it, that game's visual style and jungle setting also lends itself to have a lot of repeat texture-work (i.e., fewer individual/unique textures per scene).

Yeah I agree, Uncharted looks great but it's design lends to tons of repetition on the levels. I just don't see it as the be all end all texture game that for some reason it seems to be here on B3D. I've finished Uncharted, Bioshock, Metal Gear 4 and Mass Effect. Bioshock is just as impressive to me if not more so (talking about 360 version where you can actually see the texture detail). Metal Gear 4 has better looking characters and way more texture variety, and just all around great texture work. Mass Effect has better looking characters as well, and at times the levels look visually better but it's not as consistent. In the end Uncharted does just what Statix says, it's a very controlled environment and they draw a few textures really well. But there are more impressive games out there. Subjective perhaps, but that's my 2 cents.

 

[Neb]

It's kinda boring to read how Uncharted has the best textures. Has anyone counted used texels per screen yet?

Uncharted got some really nice textures but they are cleverly and carefully placed in the linear path of the player. In many screenshots and the game of course one can see how the surroundings suffers quite a bit from not so good textures. Most wont notice it becouse its not in their player field view while moving in the linear path but its there.

One of the most overused screenshots to show off the textures of Uncharted has some quite obvious repeat textures. You may not notice them while playing, but they are there.

Its a mix.
http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_image.html?G=6688&N=11

 

[Boxercide]

I'm sorry. I have bad eyesight. Can you point out all the repeat textures in that shot for me? Pretend I'm Sarah Palin and you're explaining the US economy.

 

[zed]

yes theres repetition there
eg look to the white marble to the left+right of the player, also on the two pillars look at the white marble

In saying that though Uncharted is still like it was when it was released
*The current graphical benchmark of this generation*
texture quality is only part of the reason

 

[_Enigma_]

"Didn't Uncharted have 2048x2048 resolution textures with up to 8 layers? (including reflective for wet effects etc)"

Is this correct?

 

[Statix]

Upto 8 layers of unique textures on every surface? And jungle? Have you played the game? There's tonnes of different areas, and each is very varied with loads of textures strewn accross the place.

I don't see that. What I see with Uncharted is a very consistent setting throughout most of the external setting of the game, which is jungles, jungles, jungles. In such a setting, there're lots of opportunities to simply repeat the same same sets of leaf, rock, and grass textures all over the place, again, and again, and again. Albeit with possibly some techniques to "blend up to 8 layers of textures" in order to mimic or fake the appearance of many different varied/unique textures per scene at a time.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm sorry. I have bad eyesight. Can you point out all the repeat textures in that shot for me? Pretend I'm Sarah Palin and you're explaining the US economy.

The lighter streaks in four vertical lines on both sides. The wall Nathan is ducked behind has the same white plaster texture with a '>' cutout on its left on both side. In the left column halfway down is a yellow and grey block with a scar across it. This is repeated on the right block a little higher up. In all these cases, these textures are being blended with other textures to reduce repetition.

However, I don't really understand the argument here, at least not what the constructive direction of the thread is supposed to be. Of the games I've seen and played this gen, Uncharted has by far and away the least visible texture repetition, wiht fantastic fidelity every its wanted. Lots of other games may have more variety, but when they solve the problem of texturing with one wall texture repeated ad infinitum, IMO that's a bad call. Texturing in games is pretty diabolical overall. Repeating grass textures could have been elliminated in DX7 with two blended textures, but to this day we have tiled grass looking rubbish. At least Uncharted is using the limited texture budget of these consoles to hide the textures very effectively.

Whatever game has the best texturing, a subjective question depending on one's priorities, isn't really a valid topic of discussion for the Tech Forum. This thread was spawned from discussion of Bioshock and claims certain textures were diabolical due to RAM limits. Thus the thread should focus on texturing techniques and what games are doing, and why Bioshock and other games may have some very poor texturing efforts. A versus thread of 'this game has better textures than that game' without any technical merit or intelligent foundation can't be expected to hang around long!

 

[joker454]

Of the games I've seen and played this gen, Uncharted has by far and away the least visible texture repetition, wiht fantastic fidelity every its wanted.

...because they designed it out. For example, when you start the demo, you are surrounded by trees everywhere. Those trees are all texture repetition, but it's not as noticeable compared to say if it were a cliff side where texture patterns are easier to spot. The jungle theme hides repetition well, and they rely heavily on that.

Once you step away from the jungle, it has patterns like any other game. Take a look at this pic, I just grabbed the first one I saw on google:

http://www.gamesarefun.com/games/ps3/uncharted/7-11/5.jpg

Take a look at the tower on the right, in particular the plaster patterns on the stone. It's the exact same texture used on all four levels of the tower. Look on the left side on the stone structure, such as the arched stone sections. Again, the same texture repeated over and over again. The technique they use to try and hide the patterns, such as the cobblestone floor, are no different than any other game. There's no magic here at all. They can do it a bit better than other games though again because the limited variety lets them spend the bulk of their texture budget on foliage and stone.

 

[TrungGap]

...because they designed it out. For example, when you start the demo, you are surrounded by trees everywhere. Those trees are all texture repetition, but it's not as noticeable compared to say if it were a cliff side where texture patterns are easier to spot. The jungle theme hides repetition well, and they rely heavily on that.....

I agree. In BioShock, there are a lot of billboards, signs and writings on the walls and all the amazing art deco. There a lot more variety in BioShock than Uncharted. Overall, I'm sure there are some lower quality texture on the PS3, however the majority should remain the same. The only question is why the blur? It's not like the PS3 has half the RAM for texture.

Graphically, it's amazing. However, if you haven't seen it on PC/360, BioShock looks amazing on the PS3 if you ask me.

 

[AlNom]

*Ahem* Folks. Leave the subjective "I like", "it looks zomg crzy/amzinz" "I can't believe it's not splenda" stuff out of here.

Quoted for emphasis:

Whatever game has the best texturing, a subjective question depending on one's priorities, isn't really a valid topic of discussion for the Tech Forum. This thread was spawned from discussion of Bioshock and claims certain textures were diabolical due to RAM limits. Thus the thread should focus on texturing techniques and what games are doing, and why Bioshock and other games may have some very poor texturing efforts. A versus thread of 'this game has better textures than that game' without any technical merit or intelligent foundation can't be expected to hang around long!

 

[GuestLV]

because they designed it out. For example, when you start the demo, you are surrounded by trees everywhere. Those trees are all texture repetition, but it's not as noticeable compared to say if it were a cliff side where texture patterns are easier to spot. The jungle theme hides repetition well, and they rely heavily on that.

OK now take a look at this ''mega monster''

texture repetition in progress

 

[Neb]

OK now take a look at this ''mega monster''

texture repetition in progress

It does have texture repetition but its seldom noticed becouse of the design. Ground is one part but grass covers to far distances making it less/not noticable. Though that is the only way to make it fit into VRAM target of 512MB as this game is a colossus regarding texture amount and amount high-res textures even with repetition in consideration.

But it really is hard to notice I think on both games. But it might be visible in open ground areas without objects covering the ground heavily or indoors. Until they use something like IDtech5's system I dont think they can afford or have the time to do unique textures for everything.

 

[GuestLV]

It does have texture repetition but its seldom noticed becouse of the design

same as Uncharted,but talking about Crysis all say ''its TOP graphics'',when about Unchatred they say'' texture repetition'' etc.... It seems to me it is a policy of double standards

high-res textures

Like this?

Farcry2 on 512mb consoles looks better IMO

 

[Neb]

same as Uncharted,but talking about Crysis all say ''its TOP graphics'',when about Unchatred they say'' texture repetition'' etc.... It seems to me it is a policy of double standards

But you forget the scope of texture usage. You just cant judge game A and B as same becouse both use texture repetition without taking into account the scope of texture usage, detail, res and level size. Also graphics is more than textures alone "TOP graphics" certainly are regarding the sum of the parts.

Like this?

There are low-res textures in Crysis (surprise!) but not that many (and all games have this to some extent). Choosing such a place + a place covered with shadows that makes the mapping barely seen will not help your cause. Like in reality shadow covered parts shows less detail, looks more boring especially togehter with lower-res base texture.

Funny you find a bad spot and base the whole game on it, you should see other ss apart from those 3 before you judge the game, work your way backwards...

See what I did here? sure texture detail would be better seen with lighting/no shadows covering it. Your going to judge mapping/texture detail then then a place covered with shadows aint the best place to begin with!

Farcry2 on 512mb consoles looks better IMO

Im shocked, check out some grabs of FC2.... It seems it uses standard techniques for streaming (like other games).

 

[Richard]

I'm sorry. I have bad eyesight. Can you point out all the repeat textures in that shot for me?

See the two columns on either side of the player? Those are the exact same prop using the exact same texture, except the one on the right is rotated 90º clock-wise around the vertical axis.