Alternative distribution to optical disks : SSD, cards, and download*

7$ will buy you in the range of 10 GB in 2 years barring unforeseen technological innovations.
Graham was talking lifetime average cost, e.g. from 2011-2016. Some games will use less space, too, since they don't have the budget for 50GB of content.

Anyway, I agree with you in that it's still too much. I think his $3 shipping savings figure is more like $0.10, and his $20 hardware savings figure is high too.
 
I think compact flash is lmisted to 8 gigs . Just like regular sd cards are limited to 4 gigs and when you go to sdhc you get more capacity but a third of the speed .
Actually the biggest CF that I know is from Microdia and have 64GB with over 40MB/s of transfer speed. The original specification had a max size of 4GB and in the first revision the size was updated up to 137GB, and in the last specification dated in 2004 was added the IDE Ultra DMA 133 mode, making the max theorical speed of the CF 133MB/s.

I think that technically speaking the best solution for the hardware point of view is to use PROM in combination with Flash, a well designed PROM can be more space efficient that a Flash and is simpler but the flash have the advantage of being rewritable. In this panorama a hybrid card with 8GB of PROM + 8GB of Flash is cheaper to manufacture that a 16GB Flash card.
 
I have been following this on and off and therefor might have missed the answer to the following question.
How does SSD compare to optic media when it comes to mass production of units with content on them?
For CD/DVD/BD you "just press" it, but how is this achived on SSD and how much time does that take compared to a optical disc.
I mean, running a production line at max capacity is also important and if producing 100K ssd units takes 10x longer time than producing 100k dics with content, thats additional costs.
 
I have a question. We've already discussed that ssd is to expensive for next gen console games. But how much would u need for a cache instead of a hardrive. Sandisk is releasing a 16 GB shdc card that will do 30MB/s read / write speeds the cost is $180 but would this be enough to act as a cache for a console. Sure it will be expensive at first but flash memory should decrease faster than hardrive costs and can go under the $50 barrier. Samsung is also developing http://www.businesswire.com/portal/...d=news_view&newsId=20080826006494&newsLang=en which is a low cost ssd drive that will provide up to 32GB of data storage and a transfer speed 70/90MBs while offering a size 30% smaller than a 2.5inch drive. Now surely this will be expensive also (though in 2010/11 mabye not so much as 2008) and it wont be big enough to replace a hardrive totaly . But it could work in a new core/arcade type machine. Perhaps with a 32GB capaicty you can take 20GBs or so and use it towards caching games and the rest you can use for game saves and dlc content. You can then offer an external 2.5inch laptop drive like the 360 is doing now for additonal storage. However once again the ssd should be able to hit a pricep oint under that of hardrives. You will also have standard caching and saves across the board on consoles and insanely fast read / write speeds and low latancy.
 
Flash is too slow and too small to be used as a meaningful cache. Better to put that money towards a faster HDD (10-15k RPM) and/or more memory...
 
A 10-15K RPM HDD in a console, that's insane. As for slow, at large capacities flash can give whatever throughput you want ... it's just a question of putting enough ICs in parallel.
 
Smaller packaging leads to savings though. DS boxes are a fraction of the size of a DVD case, so you could fit 3-4x as many in a container for shipping and save a noteworthy amount.
A DS game box has around the same size of a PS3 game case (they are smaller than DVDs cases) thick vs length.
 
We know how much profit the flash manufacturers are making ... it costs pretty close to what they are charging.

Im sorry, flash memory has been very profitable for most of the big producers that are currently in business, if not all of them. 2008 has been a bad year for most big firms, but flash memory has made a lot of money since these firms began business.
 
Im sorry, flash memory has been very profitable for most of the big producers that are currently in business, if not all of them. 2008 has been a bad year for most big firms, but flash memory has made a lot of money since these firms began business.

Flash memory follows a boom-bust cycle, similar to DRAM. Use of Flash in cellular phones, cameras and IPods has made this mostly boom so far. The current super low prices is a result of supply exceeding demand, thus Flash vendors are in the bust end of the cycle right now.

Flash replacing harddisks may cause another boom cycle. However, long term pricing will follow Moore's law.

There is no way flash memory is going to replace optical media for the next gen consoles (if ever).

However it is quite likely that next gen consoles will ship with around 16GB flash memory instead of a harddisk, - making a HDD optional.

Cheers
 
A DS game box has around the same size of a PS3 game case (they are smaller than DVDs cases) thick vs length.

Not just that, but games used to be sold in CD jewel-cases, which are smaller than DS cases. If space on the shelf were such a concern I'm sure we'd see smaller cases for discs too.
 
You don't need to eat into your margin. Lets say that in 2010 32 gig sd cards cost $5 bucks for publishers to buy and put data on. Simply increase the cost of the game to $65 bucks in the states. The xbox 360 shows that even a $10 increase in software price wont affect sales .

By 2010 the cost to press a BD will be measured in pennies. So why not just increase the price to $65 and release on BD anyway? I cant see how having a game on SD would ever benefit publishers (other than the console manufacturer).
 
A DS game box has around the same size of a PS3 game case (they are smaller than DVDs cases) thick vs length.

Thats down to the design , there is no reason why the box couldn't be smaller. Just look at dvds and blurays. Why are dvd cases so big compared to bluray cases even though bluray discs are the same size ? You an design a ds game case to be as thin as a bluray case but half the size or more in height and width. Of course at a point you will loose display size.

By 2010 the cost to press a BD will be measured in pennies. So why not just increase the price to $65 and release on BD anyway? I cant see how having a game on SD would ever benefit publishers (other than the console manufacturer).

Dvd's don't even cost pennies. Dual layer dvds i believe are still in the quarter range. Regardless , with flash ram soultions you will gain speed , capaicty and seek time advantages .

Case in point you can design a packaging for up to 8 sd cards or flash ram types in the packaging. Modern sd can hit 30MB/s. So 2 = 60MB/s , 4= 120MB/s , 8 = 240MBs . A 12x bluray will hit I believe in the 50MB/s mark. So in this situation if you can actually scale up hte size of the cart along with its speed. So if in 2011 8 sd cards cost $3 in bluk you can use 2 of them at a $6 cost and have a 16 gig game with a 60MB/s transfer rate. Or for $12 if you need it you can have a 32 gig game with a 120MB/s transfer rate you can get it . At the end of the generation 32 gig sd cards may cost $3 in bluk and you can have much larger games.

Of course cost will be more , but this option has more positves . Right now you can buy a 16 GB sdhc card for $40 and a 8GB shdc card for $16 . If the xbox doesn't launch till 2010 we will see another 2 years of price drops on both of these.

I'm not sure how much extra devs are willing to spend but if ms is ordering in the millions costs should go down drasticly. In the next 2-3 years we should also see them use a smaller micron process . So we should see 64GB , 128GB and greater capacitys . So while the 4 gig sdhc card wont drop under the $5-10 market (which seems ot be the limit flash ram) we should see greater capacitys most likely up to 16 gigs hit that price point

Another thing is the console itself. You'd save alot of room with a sd card reader over a disc drive and have a lower failure rate and no scratched disks . Just take the 360 and remove the dvd drive. you can use the memory card slot as a decent size for what a flash drive for the system would be like. You'd be able to reduce the 360 size greatly. Thus reducing costs of the console all around.
 
Dvd's don't even cost pennies. Dual layer dvds i believe are still in the quarter range. Regardless , with flash ram soultions you will gain speed , capaicty and seek time advantages .

Let me rephrase: the cost to press a BD will be measured in cents. There is no way that SS media will ever come close to approaching the costs of a pressed plastic disc.

For SS media to be viable, Sony needs to be onboard, and I doubt that will happen considering the invest already made in BD, and the positioning of Playstation as a digital hub.
 
Let me rephrase: the cost to press a BD will be measured in cents. There is no way that SS media will ever come close to approaching the costs of a pressed plastic disc.

For SS media to be viable, Sony needs to be onboard, and I doubt that will happen considering the invest already made in BD, and the positioning of Playstation as a digital hub.

Why would sony need to be on board ? There are other solid state flash ram producers out there. How many xbox 360 games are sold each year ? How much would that drive costs of flash ram down if suddenly tens of millions of devices were to go to games.

While I doubt it will ever rival optical formats , there are many advantages have that optical formats will never catch up with.


Let me ask a question. How long would it take to fill up 4 gigs of system ram with a 12x bluray drive . How long would it take to fill up 4 gigs of ram with a 60MB/s transfer rate wth flash. how long would it take with a 120MB/s transfer rate with flash.
 
Why would sony need to be on board ? There are other solid state flash ram producers out there. How many xbox 360 games are sold each year ? How much would that drive costs of flash ram down if suddenly tens of millions of devices were to go to games.

While I doubt it will ever rival optical formats , there are many advantages have that optical formats will never catch up with.


Let me ask a question. How long would it take to fill up 4 gigs of system ram with a 12x bluray drive . How long would it take to fill up 4 gigs of ram with a 60MB/s transfer rate wth flash. how long would it take with a 120MB/s transfer rate with flash.
Where does HDD fit in your picture? Will it stand still with zero speed improvement in future? Have you ever heard of hybrid HDD?
 
Let me ask a question. How long would it take to fill up 4 gigs of system ram with a 12x bluray drive . How long would it take to fill up 4 gigs of ram with a 60MB/s transfer rate wth flash. how long would it take with a 120MB/s transfer rate with flash.

Perhaps you would like to address the point of costs instead of sidestepping his point and changing the argument.
 
Perhaps you would like to address the point of costs instead of sidestepping his point and changing the argument.

I already addressed that. I admited it would be more expensive but it would also bring with it many advnatages that optical format doesn't have. I would gladly spend an extra $10 a game to get rid of load time , installs and of course loud drive noise. hell i'm sure I will have to pay a $10 premium next gen anyway. Its not as if game prices are going to get cheaper next gen. You can argue that the ps3 has a silent drive, but of course its a slow drive for bluray, I'm sure devs would like faster drives to stream content faster , which will of course mean higher rpms and a louder drive.

Remember game prices can change based on the size of the game for developers. You have a game that needs only 8 gigs . Fine that game might sell for $50 or $60. A game needs 32 gigs that game may have to cost $70 or $75. We have that today without a capacity change. You have banjo for $40 coming out while you have gears coming out at $60. I'm sure for some if there was no load time and no long install for MGS4 they would have paid $70 for it. Same goes for gears of war 2 with me. If you could give me 0 loading time on gears 2 and it cost me $10-$15 more I would buy it .
 
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Where does HDD fit in your picture? Will it stand still with zero speed improvement in future? Have you ever heard of hybrid HDD?

You can have a large hardrive for downloadable games and movies , dlc , music and what have you. Actually if you remove a large optical drive , you can bring back 3.5inch hardrives. Then you can most likely have multi TB drives in next gen consoles at a much reduced price. After all for a consumer a 1tb 3.5inch drive is only $140 now. In the future it will only drop in price. I'm sure MS and sony could get a 750 gig drive today for the price of the 120 gig drive sony is putting into the ps3 later this year if not the price of the 60 gig ms is using
 
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