you think ATI R400 will double the transistor count again?

So the R300 has about 4x what the G550 has You're right, it's all a matter of scale

This is true... mainly because you can't let your competitors get a competitive advantage.

 

PixelFusion was similar, in that it had >100MTransistors devoted to it's SIMD/eDRAM arrays on a 0.25um process IIRC back in '99 or 2000. Pretty cool actually, but the per die costs were astronomical.

The Graphic Synthesizer I-32 has 280-odd Million transistors, it's 0.18um and it's package is >20cm*20cm.

I don't think it has much, if any, relevance to what ATi is producing for the consumer marketplace though, probobly best to leave it outta this conversation.

 

Except, of course, that the R200 happened at the beginning of last year, and the R100 about 18 months before that.

Hhhmmm, sounds a bit like moore's law, no?

 

Ok I found the reference to the EE3, of course by the same account the EE2 should be ready this year and appear in a workstation 100 times more powerfull than the original playstation ... and a workstation should have come out in 2000 based on the EE which was 10 times more powerfull than the original playstation. Given that string of failures with his predictions (Im assuming neither the EE2 nor the workstations will ever see the light of day) and since it was before the IBM partnership I think we can safely say that the 500 million transistor number is utterly and completely meaningless

 

I think that's a typo... cm -> mm ?!

K-

 

Whether this is correct or not, it's not really relevant. Sony can afford to lose a very large amount of money on each system because they get a cut from all the software packages sold.

PC IHVs have to make a profit.

 

Actually, the idea that a console manufacturer can burn money indefinitely on console hardware because of the software subsidy is somewhat of a fallacy.

The reasoning is that the average console owner buys something like 10 games over the life of the console (I can't remember the exact figure, but I was surprised, it was significantly lower than I expected). The software subsidy isn't that great - only a few £ per game - so you can't afford to subsidise the hardware assuming a £200 kickback from the software side.

Even if the figure was up in the 20-game region that I would have thought more normal for life sales, that's still probably under £100 to subsidise the hardware with.

The general rule is that the first few million units (about the first year of the product) can afford to be sold as a loss leader, but as console volume ramps you have to shrink your chips, cheapen components, etc. and get the hardware to break even. Then in the later life of the product - after a second or third shrink - the hardware should start making a modest profit (or at least should have room to do so before competitor price-cutting leads you down that road too).

 

product launches were actually

R300 was launched July 2002
R200 was previewed August 2001/reviewed October 2001
R100 was launched July 2000

did the tape outs etc occur in a different relative time frame (~12 months bewteen each product?)

according to you timescale R100 occurred summer 1999.

 

Dio,
I was only assuming a few dollars/Euros/whatever per chip. Something that could be achieved with the sale of a couple of games. (BTW the market that the Console companies want to get into is online gaming, where they can get more regular income (BTW I'm not implying that is bad in any way))

The thing is that the HW vendors in the PC market don't have that option at all.

 

As a layman I wouldn't compare PC graphics chips with console chips, simply because of the lifespan each can have. I might keep a console for a 5 year period which wouldn't be much of a problem, while on the contrary keeping even a high end graphics board for 5 years would make me a hero *ahem*.

 

megadrive0088 said:

Where is the link to the site where NVIDIA said that NV30 will have a 128-bit memory bus? I am really curious as to where you get your facts.

 

There are no links to Nvidia saying that NV30 will for certain have a 128-bit bus, only hints of that. Wasn't it David Kirk who said that 256-bit
was overkill? That's pretty strong indication, IMHO, that Nv30 won't have a 256-bit memory bus. Now I'd absolutely LOVE for NV30 to have a 256-bits bus since you can never have too much bandwidth. So I guess we'll just wait and see right?

 

David Kirk said 6 months ago 256 bit was overkill "for the moment." But you must also realize that he also made this statement right after the paper launch of Parhelia which had a 256 bit memory interface. Which product does better, the GF4 Ti4600 or the Parhelia?

I am sick of that statement being offered as "proof" that NV30 must be 128 bit. Fact: I don't know what memory interface NV30 will have and I would not be surprised with either.

 

JonathanFanBoi:

There are no facts NV30 will have a 256-bit bus either, so don't get your panties all in a bind over nothing. Like Dadum pointed out, Nvidia representatives (Kirk, or somebody else) called 256-bit "overkill", which I certainly does not see them say if their next product features it.

Doesn't mean of course it won't have a 256-bit bus, but in most people's opinion it is a fairly strong indication it might not have it. Well, there's always Alexok's assurances it will have it of course, if you believe him.........

Anyway... Why does it matter to you or anyone else with half a brain if NV30 has a 4-bit or 2048-bit memory interface as long as it delivers kickass performance and IQ at an at least fairly reasonable price?

All you manage to do with your indignant comments is to sound like a whiney f*nb*y. If it's got 128-bit then it's got 128-bit and WHO CARES, really? Like with dicks, it's not size that matters (and trust me, I know this from personal experience. ).


*G*

 

I never buy the first iteration of a new technology anyway, so my next jump in graphcis cards will be the R350 or NV35 anyway. Though I HOPE NV30 has a 256-bit bus, because that guaruntees that NV35 will as well. because if NV30 has 128-bit bus, that doesn't necessaraly mean NV35 would get one.


right now I think the odds of Nv30 being 256 bit is 50/50 at best. Of course, I am extremely interested in seeing its IQ and texture mapping/pixel shading ability, as it will give good indication on what to expect from the entire line (NV31, NV35, etc)

 

You should know nappe1 that I knew what they had up their sleeves you forgot that already

mmm guess I should cut it down more that pic still to big.....