Wolfenstein 360 Vid!

[dukmahsik]

http://www.gamersreports.com/index.php?action=media&sid=3779&type=stories&videos=1

carmack "360 has better dev tools than pc"... check out the vid.

 

[expletive]

http://www.gamersreports.com/index.php?action=media&sid=3779&type=stories&videos=1

carmack "360 has better dev tools than pc"... check out the vid.

I couldnt tell if there was any in-engine stuff there since the video is so bad...Can you guys amke any more sense out of it?

Carmack freakin loves the 360 though...

J

 

[pegisys]

So is Id still going to make a new IP, and Wolfenstein will use the new engine or did they just give up on coming up with something new

The video is pretty bad but the modeles they showed looked ok

 

[Acert93]

2:01 "The Xbox 360 is the first console that I ever worked with that actually has development tools that are better for games than what we got on the PC". -- John Carmak

1:42 "What we are doing... is creating this one large environment that is seemlessly [third player] as he explores his world." I had a hard time with the bracketed part... I don't think they said third player because at 2:20 they mention FPS. It does sound like they are going for large streaming worlds though.

 

[Metalgearih]

I'm sorry to make it sound bad but this is just my opinion. Isn't he(carmack) like not being himself? Maybe both Microsoft and Carmack have decided to fuel each others rockets if you know what I mean!

 

[Acert93]

I'm sorry to make it sound bad but this is just my opinion. Isn't he(carmack) like not being himself? Maybe both Microsoft and Carmack have decided to fuel each others rockets if you know what I mean!

?

1. Carmack has always been positive about the tools. Now he puts them in perspective for his id Software team: For what they are doing the dev tools on the 360 are better than the PC. Since the PC is his platform of choice, they must be pretty good. Interestingly, this is not necessarily news. The 360 dev environment has always been considered a big strength.

2. The Xbox 360 has a pretty decent GPU with solid features and has more memory (512MB) than id Software required for Doom 3 (384MBs).

3. Architecturally, OpenGL is probably dead on the PC because of Vista. Since John's favorite platform is the PC, he really has no choice to switch to switch to DX10. The Xbox 360 gives him a buffer zone to start work on DX10 while OpenGL runs its course as a mainstream API over the next couple years. OpenGL may find its way back someday, but with Vista coming up it is not a very safe bet.

4. DX10, and DX in general, have really matured of the years. John had considered using DX at one point for Doom 3.

5. The Xbox 360 gives Carmack a headstart over a lot of PC devs. John is pretty dedicated to cutting edge technology on the PC side. By getting into the guts of Xenos--which for all practical purposes is a DX10 chip--and REALLY working it hard he will have an advantage. Xenos opens a lot of new doors (displacement maps excite me personally) that I am sure he will want to explore.

6. It has been said that porting between the PC and Xbox 360, or more accurately concurrent development, should be fairly easy. This was one of MS's aims & it is a very profitable position for a lot of PC devs. PC games don't always sell great, yet they cost a lot to make to keep them cutting edge. Leveraging the console base helps sales; and on the other side MS guarantees a steady stream of AAA titles from PC developers. The PC space is full of innovative and fun games consoles have yet to really experience (e.g. WoW, BF, next year we will have Spore, etc). MS, by keeping a close aliance with PC devs, can buttress their relatively weak 1st party offerings with a decent stream of new, unique, and quality products.

I see a lot of reason for John to be excited about the Xbox 360 without insinuating anything negative. Having good tools, a solid hardware foundation, and a viable product so you can make money are all things worth be exciting about. The Xbox 360 should extend his business model and guarantee his continued excellence on future PCs.

 

[Metalgearih]

Thanks for sharing your opinions Acert. But I see the Sony camp doing just as much effort to create cutting-edge technology. Some of the points you raised are just as much viable for them. Don't tell me who is equal or who is superior, that's not my point. The thing is I see both of these console makers creating cutting edge stuff yet Carmack goes out of his (usual) way to say all that stuff about just one of them. Hence my opinion that probably his rockets are getting fueled from one camp. Take it easy, ok.

 

[Richard]

1:42 "What we are doing... is creating this one large environment that is seemlessly [third player] as he explores his world." I had a hard time with the bracketed part... I don't think they said third player because at 2:20 they mention FPS. It does sound like they are going for large streaming worlds though.

I think what Kevin says is: "...seemlessly loaded to the player as he explores..."

Acert: You may good points re John's reasons for liking the xbox 360 but and this is a bit of a nitpick but when you compare ram, if you say the xbox has 512mb (+10mb) then you also must say the PC requirement was 448 (with the 64mb local video memory) .

Also, in his reply to our "future of OGL" article he mentioned his next engine is using OGL on the PC even though it is using D3D on the xbox. Things could change but the reasons he wrote (supporting Mac/Linux and IHVs liking to optimise in OGL) aren't likely to change.

He hints at the possibility of releasing his next engine with both OGL and D3D renderers though.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Actually, Carmack's past record is what makes his comments all the more credible now.

 

[Acert93]

Thanks for sharing your opinions Acert. But I see the Sony camp doing just as much effort to create cutting-edge technology.

I did not compare/contrast Sony at all. Heck, neither did John Carmack in the video. So where is that coming from?

Some of the points you raised are just as much viable for them.

AGAIN, I did not even mention Sony. And the only points that even matter

1. The PC is John's primary format. The PC is transitioning to DX10, of which Xenos is a DX10 part. Since YOU bring up Sony: The PS3 is going the OpenGL format which will NOT be Vista-friendly. PC's future = Vista. Pretty easy math from a developers POV if you ask me.

2. John likes the Xbox 360 tools, even more so than the PC (note: again, no one said a darn word about Sony or the PS3 in the video

Don't tell me who is equal or who is superior, that's not my point.

What the heck?!

Where in all of that did I say, "Xbox 360 is superior" ?

All I did was confront your snotty remark about MS by demonstrating from a PC publishers position, specifically Carmack's, that the Xbox 360 offered a lot of oppurtunity and did NOT require some back end MS deal.

The thing is I see both of these console makers creating cutting edge stuff

Again with consoles. Pretty clear to me your original comment was console motivated--all the NON-console reasons I gave for why John is excited about the 360 are irrelevant in your opinion because he did not pick your console of choice.

Ho hum. Welcome to last month.

yet Carmack goes out of his (usual) way to say all that stuff about just one of them.

Yeah... at the expense of the PC. You are the only person on the planet even radaring in on the PS3 here. He was not contrasting the PS3 and Xbox 360--he was contrasting the Xbox 360 in relation to the PC. Yes, his beloved PC!

Hence my opinion that probably his rockets are getting fueled from one camp. Take it easy, ok.

Hahaha

You want me to take it easy because you are spewing garbage. I explained, quite coherently, WHY the Xbox 360 platform looked quite pleasant to John Carmack.

Instead of refuting my points, you switch the focus from Xbox 360<>PC to Xbox 360<>PS3 which is totally irrelevant to the video interviews context. John was talking about the PC.

PC.

PC.

Yes, the PC. So when you ignore my points about why the Xbox 360 development platform is appealing to Carmack and change the focus from the 360<>PC to 360<>PS3 of course I am going to call you on it. You took a very interesting comment from a long time PC developer praising a console for their tools (which is surprising if you know anything about Carmack's history) and made it into some self absorbed fanboi "PS3 vs. Xbox 360!!111" comment.

But alas this is not about the PS3. It is about id Software's development platform of choice, which is now the Xbox 360 due to many facts, the one John mentioned is the tools. So your childish comments insinuating he must be bought off for ignoring the PS3 have no place in this thread OR in B3D in general. Is it really so hard to see that the PC wont be OpenGL friendly once Vista takes hold, so it would benefit a PC developer who has used OpenGL, like John, to make an expediant transition to DX10? You do know that not EVERY market decision is based on the console race/install base or even peculiar technologies. Market positioning your products and fan base is very important.

So to repeat: Nothing in the video had anything to do with the PS3. If you want to talk about the PS3 and id Software go start another thread, or better yet, another forum.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Acert93]

I think what Kevin says is: "...seemlessly loaded to the player as he explores..."

RGR, I could not hear that well but 3rd person did not sound right. Thanks!

Acert: You may good points re John's reasons for liking the xbox 360 but and this is a bit of a nitpick but when you compare ram, if you say the xbox has 512mb (+10mb) then you also must say the PC requirement was 448 (with the 64mb local video memory) .

I thought of that The reason I did not mention it was two fold: It complicated things first off.

Second, it is not totally comparable as the system memory is frequently used as a cache for art assets like textures and meshes. So you will have redundant data in the system memory and GPU. So the two pools do not line up exactly because the Xbox 360's UMA will be more effecient at data allocation than a PC (which is pretty woefull in this regards... but then again we get to have a TON of memory!)

So yeah, you're right. No real easy way to compare. (Oh, and the Xbox 360 has some compression techniques with normal maps not standard to the PC. That helps in effective memory size).

Also, in his reply to our "future of OGL" article he mentioned his next engine is using OGL on the PC even though it is using D3D on the xbox. Things could change but the reasons he wrote (supporting Mac/Linux and IHVs liking to optimise in OGL) aren't likely to change.

True. The time frame of his game also necessitates it as well: Vista is launching in Fall 2006 (hahaha So says MS hahaha). Vista will have a smaller install base and may take over 2 years to get a substantial transition. So his next engine is hitting that foggy area between DX9 and DX10. DX9 will run on Vista.

Your point on Mac, Linux, etc... is very important though. He may not drop OpenGL completely. But I would expect, and as it appears to be, that he is getting more familiar with DX10 and I think Vista has a bit to do with this.

If he does not make a DX10 compatible engine he wont be selling games on Windows Vista, which means down the road he could be out of business. (Ok, that is a stretch, but you know what I mean).

He hints at the possibility of releasing his next engine with both OGL and D3D renderers though.

Cool, did not know that

I was only making the general observation with Vista, for all practical purposes, not being OpenGL compatible (it will be sloooow) that for John to remain on the cutting edge on the Windows PC space he has to transition to Vista/DX10. Digging into Xenos allows him to do that quicker and to get a good head start on it (not to mention work out some DX quarks).

BUT your points are valid. I am only trying to look at it from a business perspective (as that was the implied assault on MS/id). From a business POV I can see why the Xbox platform is very enticing for PC developers who plan to stick around for Vista development.

 

[EpicZero]

I'm sorry to make it sound bad but this is just my opinion. Isn't he(carmack) like not being himself? Maybe both Microsoft and Carmack have decided to fuel each others rockets if you know what I mean!

Or he just genuinely likes the X360? acert explained it quite well. (From a PC Developers POV, the PS3 is anywhere as attractive as the X360, heck, I doubt there are any developers who feel otherwise)

 

[c0_re]

Thanks for sharing your opinions Acert. But I see the Sony camp doing just as much effort to create cutting-edge technology. Some of the points you raised are just as much viable for them. Don't tell me who is equal or who is superior, that's not my point. The thing is I see both of these console makers creating cutting edge stuff yet Carmack goes out of his (usual) way to say all that stuff about just one of them. Hence my opinion that probably his rockets are getting fueled from one camp. Take it easy, ok.

OH Please Carmack doesn't need to kiss up to anyone especially Microsoft, he's one of the most brilliant engine coders of our time(This guy almost wrote Doom and Quake engines single handedly for gods sake) he's just happy someone is providing tools that makes game development easier instead of harder. Sony has a LONG LONG LONG way to go as far as making development tools, about 10 years by my count in comparison to Microshaft.

 

[Acert93]

Guys, really, his comments were PC<>360 driven. He just wants to egg on this subject. He has been responded to. Now back to our originally scheduled programming...

Kind of shocked about the tools. I thought the PC/360 basically shared tools. So what tools on the 360 does he like? The API--you can write pretty close to the GPU HW? System performance tools--closed box is easier to fine tune?

I am interested. What tools is he talking about?

 

[rabidrabbit]

Wolfenstein 360 looks Awesome!!!

 

[Metalgearih]

I did not compare/contrast Sony at all. Heck, neither did John Carmack in the video. So where is that coming from?

WTF? I said its my opinion so get the F off my back awrite. What are you, you pick up a target and then try to act all smart over them. Jeez, don't make new members feel like they stepped on a landmine. I'll state what I want to say and compare. I wasn't blatantly claiming all that. I just said it's what it seems. Get a grip of yourself , I'm not here to pick a fight with you. My post wasn't an attack on you. Take it easy.

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

Acert, OpenGL is perfectly viable on Windows. The drivers MS is providing are layered over DX, true, but this has NO effect on gaming it means the fancy effects Aero uses MIGHT run like crap though. Just as it has always been NVidia and now I guess ATi will provide their own drivers for OpenGL, which have always been vastly better than what MS provides, so I think it's just silly that you think Vista is gonna kill off OpenGL.

 

[Platon]

1:42 "What we are doing... is creating this one large environment that is seemlessly [third player] as he explores his world."

Hmm... this is interesting, a game engine by Carmack that can handle large environments? That I would lke to see, the day when id takes a step back from the corridor shooters...

 

[pc999]

Hmm... this is interesting, a game engine by Carmack that can handle large environments? That I would lke to see, the day when id takes a step back from the corridor shooters...

It will star with Quake Wars.

 

[Platon]

It will star with Quake Wars.

Maybe, I haven't been all too interested in QW so I haven't looked into to it in great detail, I have seen a few screens and that is it, but from what I saw I wouldn't say that it is having huge/open levels...