Will the PS3 have an XMB desktop that has Browser abilities

[jeff_rigby]

This is a spawn of: HTML5 in consoles thread page 20


Will the next desktop be a browser

While many people envision that the next desktop will be the browser, many more do use Web applications almost exclusively, already today. The traditional separation between Web and Desktop app development is blurring. Browsers have become powerful platforms for running complex applications, and this situation is speeding up with the broad and increasing adoption of HTML5 standards by major browsers.

On the other hand, we have D-Bus, a freedesktop.org standard that is at the core of almost every GNU/Linux system out there. It is the de-facto IPC mechanism on which your applications talk and share. D-Bus allows us to write a program in any language, and export its usefulness over a standard channel. Also allows us to write differentiated UIs (e.g, Qt vs. GTK+ vs. NCurses) to interface a common functionality. Yes, one bus to bind them all!

Joining these two pieces together is just the next logical step. A step towards bringing together the best of two contexts: the ubiquity of the Web and the inter-process collaborative nature of the Desktop.

We need to write applications that you can host and use securely and reliably not only in your computer, but anywhere in the Planet where you happen to have a browser plugged into the Net; whether it is your laptop, mobile phone, tablet or your neighbors’ PS3. We also need to encourage application developers to export the logic of their programs over D-Bus, to allow other platforms (like the Web!) to reuse it. Telepathy is a good example of such program.

Almost identical applications in terms of functionality are written for FOSS environments like GNOME, KDE, MeeGo, Android, etc; yet many times only the user experience and the technologies used to build it are different. I think there is room for a wider code-reusing culture if we come back to the original Unix philosophy:

Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface.

This article grabbed my attention not because it mentions the PS3, D-Bus and Telepathy which are Collabora projects and I believe Collabora is working with Sony in some way, but because it mentions; "the next desktop will be the browser".

I believe Cairo is being used for the PS3 and NGP for their desktop as well as to support webkit. Cairo can be used to support a desktop that is a browser or has a browser like capability. Possibly cairo - clutter but the clutter part can't be confirmed.

Patsu and I speculated on HTML5 UI subsections in the XMB and I and others on HTML5 widgets. A better choice is SVG using Cairo and possibly bypassing the HTML5 javascript engine.

Cairo is being used by Firefox and other browsers for SVG support. A custom PSGL or OpenGL supported Cairo has quite a few attractive features. It will be used to:

1) Support Webkit Confirmed
2) With Cairo on both the PS3 and NGP, for remote desktop obvious
3) On the desktop for a WOW frontend similar to what we see in the attractive iOS and Android front ends. Needed
4) and it can be used to support a browser desktop

Edit: A Browser desktop has the entire surface of the XMB able to act as "Canvas" or "Cairo surface" for Widgets and a Webkit Browser window.

Sony expects "Cairo evolving toward COLLADA over time." Sony is expecting to have Cairo evolve to use game assets (COLLADA). That to me means that Cairo has a BIG part to play in Sony platforms and will be used as the basic building block for (applications, desktop and possibly on-line games) the NGP and PS3. The front end (desktop) will be based on Cairo as will the webkit ports. An upper level Cairo library would be more efficient for remote desktop.

Edit: Sony can go the Android OS or Chrome OS route and build their own desktop or they can use GTK+3 and use it for Webkit and to build their own custom front end like the various flavors of Linux do. Gnome is a Linux desktop built using the GTK toolkit that is now totally based on Cairo. In either case Cairo is the basic building block.

IF GTK+3 is used then there are multiple open source applications that can be easily ported to the PS3. With a do it yourself desktop the core logic of applications can be used but the entire GUI would need to be rewritten. The PS3 and certainly the NGP have the power and memory to do either case. Remember the PS3 did have full blown Linux support. An abbreviated custom theme desktop and OS with much of the Linux kernel functionality stripped out should be snappier than what we had. With Cario properly OpenGL (or PSGL) supported, drawing should be equal to high end PC Linux.

The logic of this clicks in my mind. The uses for this in an on-line world beg for some speculated uses in a thread on this forum.

Would such a scheme result in a smaller XMB that is at the same time more powerful? Is a subset of this idea already being used for the PS3 XMB with the full implementation in Firmware 4.0? Anyone else think this is coming?

 

[jonabbey]

I think you're the mad prophet of HTML, jeff.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think you're the mad prophet of HTML, jeff.

Sometimes ., enough speculation and no matter how wild some of it might turn out to be true. There are guesses and assumptions in this. Cairo is a given as that was mentioned by Geoff the guy in charge of the webkit port. Then look at what Cairo does and how it could be used in the PS3 and Sony's ecosystem, the rest follows.

I gather that you don't believe this is coming?

 

[Dregun]

This was my first thought when "Cloud" computing first started to be reference everywhere on the net. Quite honestly the Phantom has shown that we currently waste a lot silicon to accomplish the same thing in so many places at the same time.

The problem has always been the browser or gui for instance as it has severely held back the next major developments. The Dashboard and XMB are very poor GUI's, in fact explorer is a pretty poor desktop as well and simply just acts as a slow gateway to everything on our systems.

HTML5 has the potential to do things far beyond simple webpage displays. Back in the day when all that was available was Windows 95 I toyed around with creating my own desktop by creating a webpage that hyperlinked my files. I had animated icons on my "desktop" that I created or scoured from the internet. At that time my desktop was far more customizable then the one provided by Windows and I was able to create a "window" (using frames) that allowed me to surf the web and still have access to my "icons" at the same time. I was able to completely manipulate how I wanted things to look and work within IE (to an extent). I treated IE as my GUI and was able to do some pretty creative things back in the day.

Sadly I haven't messed around with web design over the last 15 years, the things I could do with Flash right now to replace my desktop just makes me drool! HTML5 with the proper middleman is the next step, it will be what is the norm in 5 -10 years and completely change the way we look at computers and other CE devices.

I'm surprised neither MS or Sony has revamped the GUI they have currently. Both systems are plenty strong enough to do remarkable things and completely change the way we look at those devices.

 

[jeff_rigby]

This was my first thought when "Cloud" computing first started to be reference everywhere on the net. Quite honestly the Phantom has shown that we currently waste a lot silicon to accomplish the same thing in so many places at the same time.

The problem has always been the browser or gui for instance as it has severely held back the next major developments. The Dashboard and XMB are very poor GUI's, in fact explorer is a pretty poor desktop as well and simply just acts as a slow gateway to everything on our systems.

HTML5 has the potential to do things far beyond simple webpage displays. Back in the day when all that was available was Windows 95 I toyed around with creating my own desktop by creating a webpage that hyperlinked my files. I had animated icons on my "desktop" that I created or scoured from the internet. At that time my desktop was far more customizable then the one provided by Windows and I was able to create a "window" (using frames) that allowed me to surf the web and still have access to my "icons" at the same time. I was able to completely manipulate how I wanted things to look and work within IE (to an extent). I treated IE as my GUI and was able to do some pretty creative things back in the day.

Sadly I haven't messed around with web design over the last 15 years, the things I could do with Flash right now to replace my desktop just makes me drool! HTML5 with the proper middleman is the next step, it will be what is the norm in 5 -10 years and completely change the way we look at computers and other CE devices.

I'm surprised neither MS or Sony has revamped the GUI they have currently. Both systems are plenty strong enough to do remarkable things and completely change the way we look at those devices.

Exactly, except maybe we should qualify that svg rather than canvas will probably be used.

There has to be an analog of the very attractive iOS and Android desktops on Sony platforms. And how should your ecosystem work RE: PS3 - Handhelds. The PS3 -PSP abilities are, I believe, just a hint of what's to come. The NGP - PS3 remote desktop can be thought of as just a custom desktop browser server-client. And I'm again speculating that there will be a remote desktop, anyone disagree?

D-Bus to fling data between platforms or applications, Gstreamer (PS3 multimedia) has server abilities to support remote play, Gstreamer - cairo can manipulate video windows AKA pinch and expand or twist and skew or even annotate.

 

[jonabbey]

The particular technologies and frameworks aren't that big a deal. Sony spends (spent) enough on PS3 software development that they could achieve any end they desire in their interface without regard to what frameworks are freely licensable.

Just look at PlayStation Home. That's where Sony is evidently investing the most in terms of a new PS3 experience, and they developed most of that code from scratch.

Sony could do a lot of things on the PS3, but in terms of changing the interface, I suspect that'll be held back as a selling point for the PS4.

Besides, I *like* the XMB a whole lot.

 

[acaeus]

seems far-fetched to me, considering the ps3 barely has a browser...

 

[jeff_rigby]

The particular technologies and frameworks aren't that big a deal. Sony spends (spent) enough on PS3 software development that they could achieve any end they desire in their interface without regard to what frameworks are freely licensable.

Just look at PlayStation Home. That's where Sony is evidently investing the most in terms of a new PS3 experience, and they developed most of that code from scratch.

Sony could do a lot of things on the PS3, but in terms of changing the interface, I suspect that'll be held back as a selling point for the PS4.

Besides, I *like* the XMB a whole lot.

Sony apparently likes the XMB also, in the same quoted paragraph where they are saying they are going to use Cairo evolving to collada (game assets) they mention the XMB.

Spent allot on the PS3 software? Games and game development tools yes. Home yes, the PS3 XMB and accessories in the PS3 not so much. It's really kinda bare and OLD. Look at what comes with Android or iOS hendhelds as free "includes" and compare that to what the PS3 has. Now look at the resources the PS3 has, hard disk and GPU that is nearly 10 times as powerful and what applications does it have?

As the Sony presence in your living room is it living up to what Sony should want as it's image? By the end of this year it should.

Edit: Sony could have written the XMB using low level GPU instructions without using a higher level library. With remote desktop and PS Suite in mind they have to have at least some common GPU library in mind at least between PS3, NGP and possibly Sony Android platforms. Conversion to OpenGL 2.0 for PS Suite targets can be accomplished by PS Suite (The industry uses OpenGL ES 2.0. Sony has a PSGL that uses the same model but may have different calls. )

A higher level library like Cairo would make remote desktop between PS3 - NGP and Sony Android platforms easier. There are tradeoffs either way. How was the NGP frontend UI written, low level or Cairo. The Android platform uses Skia which is a less powerful SVG library to write their UI. I assume the NGP will use Cairo. And if this is true then even if the PS3 XMB used low level there would be multiple advantages to rewriting it to use Cairo. Remote desktop is the key here, is the Sony ecosystem going to have remote control or remote desktop?

All speculation.

 

[jeff_rigby]

seems far-fetched to me, considering the ps3 barely has a browser...

It now scores about a 27out of 100 in the Acid test.

Upgrading the browser to a webkit which scores 100 also updates the libraries in the PS3 and those make possible many new features and applications. It also at the same time provides much of the support needed to PS Suite port applications to the PS3.

 

[Dregun]

I was very interested in the premise of HOME when it was first covered, however it never felt like a GUI (that I thought it would) but more like a simple game.

If Sony could recreate portions of HOME into the GUI to offer a virtual world to control your console it might be pretty interesting. Why not have the TV in your virtual "Living Area" be where you go to adjust your display settings, a stereo to where you go to adjust your audio settings. Alarm system to adjust security settings and user profiles, a picture frame to access your pictures and a ipod dock to access your stored music. Go into another room off to the side and you have access to physical objects that represent your games that have been catagorized by the user.

What this would do is give people the impression that their PS4 or whatever is tied into a virtual world.

However the biggest setback to anything is going to be the loading speed of whatever is used. Even if the system uses some basic HTML without going too deep into intense 3D environments and such the system cannot take very long to load. They would have to keep the system on par with the XMB or MS Dashboard or it will feel like wasted time and effort.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I was very interested in the premise of HOME when it was first covered, however it never felt like a GUI (that I thought it would) but more like a simple game.

If Sony could recreate portions of HOME into the GUI to offer a virtual world to control your console it might be pretty interesting. Why not have the TV in your virtual "Living Area" be where you go to adjust your display settings, a stereo to where you go to adjust your audio settings. Alarm system to adjust security settings and user profiles, a picture frame to access your pictures and a ipod dock to access your stored music. Go into another room off to the side and you have access to physical objects that represent your games that have been catagorized by the user.

What this would do is give people the impression that their PS4 or whatever is tied into a virtual world.

However the biggest setback to anything is going to be the loading speed of whatever is used. Even if the system uses some basic HTML without going too deep into intense 3D environments and such the system cannot take very long to load. They would have to keep the system on par with the XMB or MS Dashboard or it will feel like wasted time and effort.

Sony has what they call snapshot booting which is similar to resume in PCs and what we called roll-in and roll-out in Revolver on the Atari ST. A Snapshot of the registers and memory of the PS3 can be saved to roll back into memory. It's a hard disk cache on steroids. Back in the day we could boot a new machine state in less than 8 seconds vs 1.34 minutes. This only works in fixed hardware like game consoles where all hardware and registers are known.

Current Home hard disk cache is treated like SD memory I would guess because Home will soon be available to handhelds.

Re: Home like areas for PS3 settings. While I personally would find something like what you describe clumsy, it could be a user choice configurable option with a Cloud computing model or with files on the Hard disk. The key is a higher level language for the graphics and an XMB that supports such a model.

I did feel that demonstration areas in Home for the Sound and video the PS3 and your home theater can project might be an interesting idea. Caves for echos or a T-Rex scream and walking same as in Jurassic park would show off your setup to friends

 

[jeff_rigby]

IFs assumed

There is an interesting library for building interactive GUIs or a Desktop called Clutter. Clutter is used by the Google Chrome OS to build it's UI frontend and we all know that the Chrome OS uses the Cloud computing model. My understanding is it's a higher level library of calls based on several different graphics backends. In our case the basic chain from lower to higher level would be: PSGL or OpenGL ES 2.0 => Cairo => Clutter

The decision to use higher level libraries I would guess depends on the overhead in memory or kernel overhead. IF the same functionality with lower level libraries is possible, Clutter would probably not be used. For instance, the Google Android front end was built with Skia which is a less powerful SVG library similar to the more powerful and hardware accelerated Cairo but the Google Chrome OS used Clutter. These are decisions I can't even guess at.

At the present time there are platform developers porting Cairo and Gstreamer to Android platforms because the older less powerful Skia (graphics library ) and Open Core (multi-media library) can't compete with Apple iOS wow front end features. It's easier with Cairo and Gstreamer to support graphics, adaptive streaming, DRM or an ecosystem (makes it easier with more powerful supported open source standards). I expect Sony to do the same for their Android platforms. Adding another level onto that with Clutter I don't expect, at least this generation. That makes it more difficult to add wow features which means we will get fewer . It's still possible for Clutter on the PS3 and NGP and in the next Android generation.

I don't believe Android 2.2 platforms can support remote desktop, Android 2.3 (Game Android) which supports GPU hardware acceleration and multi-threading might be able to remote desktop a PC or Linux platform. Another reason for multiple hardware developers porting Cairo?

EDIT: Then again, The Google Chrome OS is supposed to be a flagship for a tablet computing model, it uses Clutter. There is also supposed to be a Google Chrome application that supports PC remote desktop. What libraries is Android evolving toward? Will Sony again look 10 years ahead and include support for Clutter? Can they get Google code for the remote PC Desktop application? Would that tip Sony toward including Clutter in the PS3 and giving us remote PC desktop for the PS3 and Sony Android platforms. (Don't know if clutter is needed for remote Desktop, it might just make it easier and again the decision is memory footprint.)

ios tablets have remote desktop applications for both the PC and Linux. I counted 4 commercial applications and two free with just a quick Google search. This is apparently a big feature and I expect something like it on the Sony ecosystem. Clutter would make it easy; i.e. why did Google choose it for Chrome?

The Desktop tool bar in the above Linux desktop is called Cairo Dock, it's an animated toolbar that uses Cairo.

"Cairo evolving toward Collada over time" would fit Clutter which is essentially an evolved more powerful Cairo but I may be stretching.

Edit: I'm not pulling the names of open source libraries out of a hat; Gstreamer, D-Bus, Cairo, Clutter, Webkit, OpenGL and more are the open source libraries created by or are creating standards in the industry.

Dynamic kernel and flat tree model kernel is possible and could be used for the XMB/multi-media side of the PS3 (reducing footprint); the game side requires a totally different model and design. No clutter, maybe no cairo and only parts of webkit or gstreamer would be called by games as needed.

Clutter is an open source (LGPL 2.1) software library for creating fast, compelling, portable, and dynamic graphical user interfaces. It is a core part of MeeGo and Chrome, and is supported by the open source community. Its development is sponsored by Intel. (MeeGo is a portable version of Linux targeted for Handhelds and sponsored by Intel and Nokia.)

Clutter uses OpenGL for rendering (and optionally OpenGL|ES for use on mobile and embedded platforms), but wraps an easy to use, efficient, flexible API around GL's complexity.

Clutter currently has the following features:

Scene-graph of layered 2D interface elements manipulated in 3D space via position, grouping, transparency, scaling, clipping and rotation. Learn more about ClutterActor...

Animation framework, providing path interpolation, transitions and other custom effects via implicit animations. Learn more about Clutter Animation Framework...

User Interface definition format, based on JSON, for describing layout and animation. Learn more about ClutterScript...

Advanced input event handling, including multiple pointing devices.

Custom Pango renderer providing efficient internationalised UTF8 text rendering through OpenGL.

Support for high end OpenGL features such as Shaders, FBO, VBO and PBO through a low-level, object oriented abstraction API. More about Cogl...

Support for media playback with GStreamer, Cairo graphics rendering, GTK+ embedding, Box2D physics engine and Gecko and WebKit web rendering are available via optional add-on libraries.

Object oriented design via GObject with a familiar GTK+ like API.

Runs on Linux, Windows and OSX with native backend window system support for GLX, EGL (both on X11 and framebuffer surfaces), WGL and Cocoa.

Support for mobile devices with fixed point internals and portability across Open GL, OpenGL ES 1.1 and OpenGL ES 2.0

"Animation framework, providing path interpolation, transitions and other custom effects via implicit animations." allows something like the following with a script.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Sometimes ., enough speculation and no matter how wild some of it might turn out to be true. There are guesses and assumptions in this. Cairo is a given as that was mentioned by Geoff the guy in charge of the webkit port. Then look at what Cairo does and how it could be used in the PS3 and Sony's ecosystem, the rest follows.

I gather that you don't believe this is coming?

We are kinda flailing around in the dark because, at least I am, we are outside Sony development circles. IF we know the libraries that are going to be used we can get a general idea of what is possible. We know Cairo is going to be used. Knowing what the competition is doing, in this case Apple, we can kinda get an Idea of what Sony might do and with that the possible librarys they might use. This is stretching speculation too far so everything should be labeled speculation with question marks.

RE: Apple the competition & war of the ecosystems

Ecosystem = multiple hardware platforms synergisticly supporting each other to provide features not possible for any one platform alone. (Also in the case of Apple, locks you into only their supported products.) Store - Web browser - Media

It's assumed that we will use a game console attached to a TV to play games and media as well as access web services in the home. It's assumed a portable game platform and other portable platforms will provide those same features outside the home.

You can use the portable to access data stored on the home console or to access media in the home network outside the home. In the home the portable can play through the home console, control the home console, act as a controller (joystick) for the home console and even with the TV off the portable can turn the home game console on and off as well as choose and play media through the home stereo. Much more is possible only limited by imagination.

DLNA, Ultraviolet, CEC are projects Sony has been involved with and the PS3 - PSP remote control and play are a taste of what's to come. Sony, Google, Adobe and others have been behind open STANDARDS for years and the thrust of many of them have as their end game this ecosystem for web, applications, media and web media as well as Games and WebGL games.

Stores are the profit center for all and a balanced effort to lock you into an ecosystem (with more features available to applications designed for and sold inside your ecosystem stores) to only shop in your ecosystem stores is being made with Apple being the most heavy handed and this may start a war between Sony and Apple see links at the bottom.

The Wii can not play DVDs display HD or do any of the things 2011 will bring with Apple, MS and Sony ecosystems (Apple started this idea in 2001, the PS3 design (after Apple proved this idea) supports this). The WiiHD and Nintendo DS could do this. This might be another supporting reason for Nintendo to release the WiiHD this year.

Silverlight 5 to be released this year is Microsoft's way to support Windows 7 - Xbox game and application portability between Windows7 handhelds and Xbox.

PS Suite is Sony's answer to port games and applications between target platforms (Android - NGP and soon PS3) Ultraviolet is the DRM used by Sony for their media service Qriocity.http://www.qriocity.com/us/en/ One account and you can play media on any supported platform (home TV, Game console, Blu-ray player, Android handheld, NGP, phone etc. Same account with no extra charge. You login with the same username and password on all platforms. They just have to support Ultraviolet DRM (or possbily be closed platforms which insures DRM).

Webkit is the feature that helps make this possible. Webkit supports web and media portability and for a webkit port to a platform, the open source libraries needed by webkit provide the infrastructure for many of the ecosystem features.

Top end TVs, Blu-ray players, cell phones, tablets, game portables, game consoles (Coming with the PS3 webkit port) and other CE equipment (even refrigerators) now have webkit installed.

Google introduced what Apple called webkit2 features with multi-threading. This adds as a byproduct the ability for other applications to call and use webkit tools without having to be inside a browser window. HTML5 introduced new features like database functions that require SQLite open source libraries in the platform. There are many libraries required for a webkit that are usable by other applications.

The above is why I have been going on and on about webkit. The Android OS provides the open source libraries required by webkit making it a complete package for a hardware platform eveloper to easily support webkit. Webkit support requires just about everything in a modern PC windows OS. The PS3 to this point and Xbox to a lesser extent has been a game machine with out this support. With a webkit port to the PS3 and to a lesser extent with Silverlight 5 support in the Xbox, both will have OSs that are nearly PC class with support for multiple new features.

Read the following links, Sony and Apple stores media, games and war of the ecosystems:

Apple reacts to Sony providing a better product and pisses off Sony

This is Sony's plan, has been their plan and Apple knew it

The PS3 plays a large part in future plans. It's the Sony living room presence and why Sony felt like they could sell it at a loss to insure it's place.

Expect the following for Sony TVs, Blu-ray players, PS3, NGP and Android platforms. The PS3 being the inexpensive way to get these new features in the living room as 2011 TVs with webkit are very expensive.

Then, Sony should develop more first-party applications for their platforms. These apps would need to do useful things that will help consumers understand the value that Sony offers — these applications must be unique and memorable. It’s no mistake that some of the most-used applications on a platform like Android, for example, are created by Google. If Sony creates a platform and creates high-quality applications for it, they will, at the very least, earn the respect of consumers and developers.

quote: http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews...ice/11804.html

MediaMemo reports that Sony today introduced "Music Unlimited powered by Qriocity" for the U.S. market. The subscription-based service ($10 per month) will compete with existing services such as MOG and Rhapsody. Yesterday, the Sony S1 appeared as Sony's first Android 3.0 tablet, which was said to focus 100 percent on Qriocity for music, games, eBooks and video on demand. Given today's news, there's little doubt that the Sony S1 will focus 100 percent on Qriocity in the U.S. too.

Verizon Wireless recently announced that it would start selling the Sony Ericsson Xperia Play this spring. The carrier has already embraced Apple's ecosystem as part of a 4G LTE strategy, and it would certainly be interesting if Qriocity will be the next one to join their party. The Xperia Play will not connect to the 4G LTE network, but we wouldn't mind if the Sony S1 turns out to be 4G LTE ready.

I just purchased the bottom end Qriocity service at $3.90/month. Most of the 1,000+ songs on my PC legally ripped by me from music CDs so that I could DLNA serve them to my home theater via my PS3 are now available with full album artwork on the PS3 and ANY on-line platform supporting Qriocity.

XML is used rather than HTML5 on the PS3 (no webkit yet) and it appears rather slow and clumsy (no hardware acceleration). There is a Cairo - XML connection and accelerated SVG graphics might have better performance. So I'm hoping that there will be a new version soon. Qriocity does disclose the Open source software used and I think the newest is 2002 vintage, old, with no graphics acceleration. Either a new version is coming with webkit-cairo updates or it's a sad commentary on Sony. My belief is the former, after the webkit upgrade a massive amount of new features and abilities.

 

[Dregun]

Sony, MS and Nintendo need to pursue better GUI's just as much as they need to pursue more ram and more transistor counts. I'm actually quite appalled by the lack of proper GUI's on these consoles considering my original Android phone with far less processing power allows me to do much more from a GUI stand point.

Why haven't more "apps" been made for these consoles yet. HTML5 might be the future but start bringing some excitement this generation and get a good basis for what you want to do in the future.

This is the perfect time for these companies to start experimenting with different GUI's in a beta type environment. Allow people to try different gui's and provide feedback about them and then use that to start building a new one for next generation.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Sony, MS and Nintendo need to pursue better GUI's just as much as they need to pursue more ram and more transistor counts. I'm actually quite appalled by the lack of proper GUI's on these consoles considering my original Android phone with far less processing power allows me to do much more from a GUI stand point.

Why haven't more "apps" been made for these consoles yet. HTML5 might be the future but start bringing some excitement this generation and get a good basis for what you want to do in the future.

This is the perfect time for these companies to start experimenting with different GUI's in a beta type environment. Allow people to try different gui's and provide feedback about them and then use that to start building a new one for next generation.

100% agree. If they are using low level now it's very difficult to write a new UI. IF for instance Sony is going to use Cairo or Clutter for the XMB it becomes MUCH easier. As an excuse for this, many will tell you it's a game machine.....the coming ecosystems would have the PS3 as the living room presence for that ecosystem and there should be a much greater emphasis on the UI and features. Thus the logic in my comments.

And if the XMB can be served, it can be changed upon connect allowing beta versions like Netflix did.

 

[jeff_rigby]

PS3 desktop XMB Multiple versions needed

With Cairo the desktop XMB becomes a script and easier to create and store multiple versions or have versions reflecting the seasons like Google does with their search page. There are many possibles as Cairo provides more options.

TVs at normal viewing distances require larger text and pictures as well as GUIs that take this into account with changes due to screen Size, resolution and distance from the screen.

Since Cairo is a SVG library some of the issues can be addressed automatically. For instance, a lower resolution can automatically have larger text and pictures in the XMB. A configuration option can have distance from screen turned into larger or smaller text and pictures on the XMB. This insures menu readability for any TV living room and TV configuration. Of course the design of the menus would have to allow expansion without looking bad or extending off screen.

The type of Controller also impacts the design of the Desktop XMB. CE-HTML & HbbTV

We currently or will have several options:

1) Sixaxis controller with easy to use cursor keys and clumsy pointer using a joystick
2) Move controller that works as an air mouse
3) blu-tooth or USB remote keyboard with touch pad
4) NGP or Android touch screen remote control
5) NGP or Sony Android remote desktop

Each of the above has their strengths and having one and only one XMB option does not make sense given Cairo in the PS3 after the webkit upgrade.

For the Sixaxis the current XMB with user configuration choices for this is now easily possible.

For the move controller something like the 2011 TV menus below which use something similar to the Move motion sensors:

I'm noticing similarities between Netflix - Vudu and the above in that there are multiple panels that can be accessed right or left like the XMB or with (Swipe, move to right or left beyond panel, click on the right or left arrow at edge of screen or with a click on the top header on the window. This allows easy control using any of the above controllers. It also appear that Sony is moving us in this direction with the XMB sub menu picture icons now displaying in rows and columns

Below would be clumsy using the Sixaxis but easy using all other controllers.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There's one fundamental issue I have with all this talk of yours : Why are you thinking PS3 is going to get a major overhaul? You keep looking for systems that could be used, and finding many libraries I've never heard of, but I don't see the core argument being tackled, as to whether it's in Sony's gameplan to release a PS3 update that radically changes how it looks and works, using all these technologies. PS4, sure. But PS3?

Find a quote saying Sony are looking to release a major update within such-and-such a time frame, or link to a lot of rumours saying PS3's getting a whole new experience, and you'll have something. Until then you're presenting lots of reasoning why and how Sony could go HTML5 for XMB, but no argument that it's something they will do.

For comparison, rumours of XB360 getting a whole new interface emerged in the beginning of July 2008, around the same time as PS3 getting a significant FW update adding features like in-game XMB and trophies, to be officially announced at E3. The NXE released in November that year, four and a bit months later. You've been talking about an HTML5 refresh of PS3's OS for ages, since post E3 last year, without a single rumour or independent speculation! It seems a lot of work to preempt a potential announcement. Everyone else is content to carry on and await some (un)official murmorings before considering the likelihood of this happening. I don't understand the fascination. It'd be like me trying to guess what game R* North is next going to produce by tracking down every tool they've bought or licensed or written and linking that to other games created with those tools etc. That doesn't happen - people just wait for games to be announced.

 

[jeff_rigby]

There's one fundamental issue I have with all this talk of yours : Why are you thinking PS3 is going to get a major overhaul? You keep looking for systems that could be used, and finding many libraries I've never heard of, but I don't see the core argument being tackled, as to whether it's in Sony's gameplan to release a PS3 update that radically changes how it looks and works, using all these technologies. PS4, sure. But PS3?

Find a quote saying Sony are looking to release a major update within such-and-such a time frame, or link to a lot of rumours saying PS3's getting a whole new experience, and you'll have something. Until then you're presenting lots of reasoning why and how Sony could go HTML5 for XMB, but no argument that it's something they will do.

"You've been talking about an HTML5 refresh of PS3's OS for ages, since post E3 last year, without a single rumour or independent speculation!" Proof a webkit browser is coming, Timetable more support in the coming months (not year)=> First page proof webkit is coming & it will use Cairo.

Alot has been happening in the Linux/webkit world. A flavor of Webkit was recently rewritten to entirely use Cairo for the graphics backend rather than Xwindows or DirectFB.

http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointNinetyone/ReleaseNotes

GDK no longer wraps the antiquated X11 drawing API; we’ve made a clean break and exclusively rely on cairo for all our drawing needs now. This has also enabled us to remove several other X11-centric concepts such as GCs, colormaps and pixmaps. The hero who did most of this work is Benjamin Otte (Red Hat).

Advantages: more portable, cleaner code, faster - can optimise around Cairo.

This results in a clean fast (accelerated) WebGL browser. The includes to support Webkit when using Cairo are smaller than with DirectFB or Xwindows. Additionally with the XMB screen using Cairo, widgets and browser window can open on the XMB.

Some changes will occur to the XMB but I expect it to stick to something similar to the CE-HTML and HbbTV standard.

SVG graphics (Cairo) is a necessary part of an ecosystem as it's scalable to any resolution. A SVG based window will scale to any resolution. Your complaint that Sony forcing 1080P web pages causes problems with your TV will be resolved when both Webkit and webpages use SVG graphics.

"Until then you're presenting lots of reasoning why and how Sony could go HTML5 for XMB, but no argument that it's something they will do" Thus the question in the title for this thread.

"finding many libraries I've never heard of" How things work appears to be an interest of yours also. I see many of your posts in the GPU threads. Why discuss GPUs, because it gives us an idea of what can be done and how. The libraries used by or to be used by Sony does the same for the multimedia side of the PS3.

I've provided links to explain Gstreamer and Cairo. They appear to be the most important Open source libraries being used (Linux based and most CE and Embedded systems are Linux based). Both are mentioned in the Sony Snap developer program. Understanding how Gstreamer works (in the PS3 day one) explains why it would not be easy to remove audio echos when using the PS3 eye/video chat. It also explains how Sony could rewrite the H.264 player to support adaptive streaming and the Home client would automatically have that ability if the Home server supported it. Or how the PS3 could easily support remote play and DLNA. Or how easy it would be for Sony to provide new codecs and how they are automatically selected. It also might explain why my 3-D DLP TV was not supported.

I was shocked that there is only one post on this board that mentions Gstreamer besides mine yet Gstreamer is used by both Firefox and Opera and is an integral part of most webkit ports. Gstreamer is how Firefox and Opera manage their codec plugins.

Find some one who's opinion you respect and point them at page 20 of the HTML5 thread and then this thread and ask them if I'm off base.


EDIT: Some background to support speculation;

1) We have an old browser that now scores 27 in the ACID test. Sony could have incrementally updated the Netfront browser. Why didn't they?
2) Qriocity on the PS3 uses open source libraries from 1999 to 2002 and displays an XML menu on the PS3 screen without acceleration because the libraries used have no hooks for hardware acceleration. The design of Qriocity is also not optimized for the PS3 menu structure. Why didn't they update the Qriocity core for the PS3?

The answer to both of the above is they are waiting for PS3 firmware 4.0 which comes with webkit and updates to the PS3 OS which will also allow porting applications to the PS3 from PS Suite.

I am speculating that along with Firmware 4.0 there will be changes to the look and feel of the PS3 XMB made easily possible because of the libraries included with the firmware update. 2011 will also bring an ecosystem to Sony most likely involving the PS3 (PS Suite, NGP and Android platforms).

Your contention when I mention that the PS3 is missing libraries and was a possible reason for few applications on the PS3 was they can be included in applications. This is true and as a result PS3 applications are huge and that creates other issues. For instance Qriocity is 121 megs just to stream Audio????? Hulu is 7 megs to stream video and audio. Try playing Qriocity music in the background

Don't hold me to exact dates but the Cairo based (Collabra Webkit GTK+ port) webkit port was announced last September 2010 within weeks of the PS3 3.5 Firmware update September 28th 2010 containing a Webkit javascript engine which would work with the Cairo port. My email to The Sony Software engineer in charge was in November after the GNU disclosure. PS Suite was announced January 27th 2011. Final touches to Cairo and the Cairo webkit port were recently posted. These are facts, what they mean would be speculation.

DRM aware Gstreamer plugins are now available (PS3 Firmware 3.56 with the Gstreamer Playbin2 adaptive streaming plugin?) but no mention of an ultraviolet DRM available for Gstreamer (Google purchased Widevine, coming from Google and available for 4.0 later this year?)

Timing: Sony has been waiting on hardware for handhelds to evolve to support at least PS1 games before releasing PS Suite, Jan 27 2011 announcement. The Snap developer Program was started August 2010 and September 2010 we got PS3 Firmware 3.5 with a Javascript engine. Webkit and Cairo have evolved recently to the point that Sony is now actively porting. Both Cairo and the Cairo webkit port NOW have stable versions listed as of Feb 2011. The same Cairo browser port will be in the NGP, they can share development costs between the two platforms.

And speaking of the on-hold Sony Snap developer program, Objective "C" and the Eclipse IDE are alive and well. It seems Objective "C" forces the writer to manage resources rather than having the OS have to manage them. In resource limited platforms (CE and Embedded) Objective "C" is preferred.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Oct 2009 This is probably what Sony saw and why I feel we will be getting a Cairo Desktop:

http://blogs.gnome.org/otte/2009/10/14/video-hackfest/

This is the result of applying my recent gstreamer-cairo hacking to a real-world application – Webkit. It’s very fast here and could record that video you see there while playing it without breaking a sweat. If you want to run the demo yourself, try http://people.freedesktop.org/~company/stuff/video-demo.html. (Be warned: That link downloads roughly 200MB of movie data. And it’ll likely only run in recent Epiphany or Safari releases.)

Also, thanks to the X foundation funding and Collabora hosting, we will be doing a video hackfest in Barcelona from 19th to 22nd next months. GStreamer, Cairo, X, GL and driver hackers will focus on stabilizing these features so that movies will be first class citizens in the future of your desktop, no matter what you intend to do with them, including doing video browsing lowfat style.

 

[jeff_rigby]

There's one fundamental issue I have with all this talk of yours : Why are you thinking PS3 is going to get a major overhaul? You keep looking for systems that could be used, and finding many libraries I've never heard of, but I don't see the core argument being tackled, as to whether it's in Sony's gameplan to release a PS3 update that radically changes how it looks and works, using all these technologies. PS4, sure. But PS3?

Find a quote saying Sony are looking to release a major update within such-and-such a time frame, or link to a lot of rumours saying PS3's getting a whole new experience, and you'll have something. Until then you're presenting lots of reasoning why and how Sony could go HTML5 for XMB, but no argument that it's something they will do.

For comparison, rumours of XB360 getting a whole new interface emerged in the beginning of July 2008, around the same time as PS3 getting a significant FW update adding features like in-game XMB and trophies, to be officially announced at E3. The NXE released in November that year, four and a bit months later. You've been talking about an HTML5 refresh of PS3's OS for ages, since post E3 last year, without a single rumour or independent speculation! It seems a lot of work to preempt a potential announcement. Everyone else is content to carry on and await some (un)official murmorings before considering the likelihood of this happening. I don't understand the fascination. It'd be like me trying to guess what game R* North is next going to produce by tracking down every tool they've bought or licensed or written and linking that to other games created with those tools etc. That doesn't happen - people just wait for games to be announced.

As usual you are spot on and after re reading the biggest question I haven't fully addressed is "without a single rumour or independent speculation!"

Your right, no one else has posted this information. The HTML5 thread on this board was the first to break the news and confirm a webkit browser was coming. Many speculated that would be the case. Why, with help from others (tuna, NPL, Makattack), was it necessary for me to email the Sony employee in charge of the GNU disclosure? Why hasn't there been any reporting of at least the GNU disclosure? Why hasn't anyone else emailed to confirm?

Being informed by "Geoff" (Sony Software engineer) the port would use Cairo, why hasn't anyone else used that information or checked in the Sony Snap developer site to confirm Cairo and Gstreamer?

We were informed by the Press that the Xbox is going to use Silverlight-5 but we don't KNOW (Press) that the PS3 and other Sony hardware platforms are going to use Cairo and Gstreamer?

"without a single rumour or independent speculation" And I can't understand why someone hasn't picked up on this.

Read what Cairo and Gstreamer libraries support and it's obvious why they were chosen and obvious what's coming and it's not just Sony.......