Will the PS3 be able to decode H264.AVC at 40 Mps?

[Brimstone]

From a political point of view and maybe a technical one, Sony and Blu-Ray are on dangerous ground. The big question right now is can the PS3 decode H.264/AVC at Blu-Ray's peak data rate.


See Blu-Ray offers a higher data rate than HD-DVD. A HD-DVD player will never be able to decode H.264 at 40 Mps because its max video data rate is 28.00 Mps compared to 40.00 Mps for Blu-Ray.

Blu-Ray offers higher specs compared to HD-DVD. The problem is if the PS3 will have enough hardware computational power to be able to decode H.264/AVC at Blu-Rays peak rate. If the PS3 can't decode a 40 Mps H.264 movie and has to have movies encoded at 28.00 for H.264/AVC, then Blu-Ray has no advantage over HD-DVD except for the amount of data a single layer holds.


It will take all the hardware power of CELL and the RSX GPU to pull this off. If Sony doesn't achieve this, we will never see Blu-Ray movies encoded at 40 Mps with H.264/AVC, even though stand alone players will be able to handle this. In essence the PS3 would end up preventing the Blu-Ray format from living up to its full potential.


So do you think the PS3 will be able to decode H.264/AVC at Blu-Rays peak rate?

 

[scooby_dooby]

The real question is whether there is even a perceptable quality difference between 28mbps and 40mbps H.264/VC1. As far as I know, 20-24mbps is basically indistinguishable from the master.

btw, Isn't Bluray 36mbps max transfer?

 

[Acert93]

It will take all the hardware power of CELL and the RSX GPU to pull this off. If Sony doesn't achieve this, we will never see Blu-Ray movies encoded at 40 Mps with H.264/AVC, even though stand alone players will be able to handle this. In essence the PS3 would end up preventing the Blu-Ray format from living up to its full potential.

Cell is a monster at this sort of encoding and decoding. It is right up Cell's alley. If the standalone units have processors that can do it, then Cell can as well. If the PS3 is unable to do such my guess is that the bottleneck would have to be elsewhere. But I don't see it as much of an issue as ATI and NV are advertising GPUs as being able to decode H.264.

Now the BluRay thoroughput is another issue and I am sure someone who knows more about that topic can enlighten us.

 

[aaaaa00]

Cell is a monster at this sort of encoding and decoding. It is right up Cell's alley.

Rumor has it there's a part of the H.264 algorithm called CABAC that is really SPE unfriendly.

Note I am NOT claiming anything about if Sony will or will not be able to pull it off.

 

[drpepper]

I find this poll odd, as polls are used to prod for either "opinion" or a "consensus" from a general population. But the thread title seems to ask a technical question. I think a better question could be asked.

It's like you're asking, can a Toyota Corolla go to 100 km/h. Well... yah... if you press the gas peddle down far enough...

So in my opinion... yah.. i think the Cell + RSX can decode an H264 codec.

 

[Sis]

I find this poll odd, as polls are used to prod for either "opinion" or a "consensus" from a general population. But the thread title seems to ask a technical question.

It's like you're asking, can a Toyota Corolla go to 100 km/h. Well... yah... if you press the gas peddle down far enough...

So in my opinion... yah.. i think the Cell + RSX can decode an H264 codec.

No, that's not right. 100 km/h is easy. AVC at 40 Mbs? Not so much. It's like saying, can the Toyota Corolla go 240 km/h. Probably, right? But positive?

I voted yes, simply because I think the odds are better on that one

 

[drpepper]

No, that's not right. 100 km/h is easy. AVC at 40 Mbs? Not so much. It's like saying, can the Toyota Corolla go 240 km/h. Probably, right? But positive?

I voted yes, simply because I think the odds are better on that one

Yah, I knew using a car analogy would bite me in the butt.

But do you know what I mean? This seems to be a question of feasibility, polling for opinion just doesn't seem right. However, a good discussion would still be formed either way.

 

[Brimstone]

The real question is whether there is even a perceptable quality difference between 28mbps and 40mbps H.264/VC1. As far as I know, 20-24mbps is basically indistinguishable from the master.

btw, Isn't Bluray 36mbps max transfer?

From what I understand it depends on the scene. Since you can have variable bit rates, you may have a lot of the movie encoded at a lower level, but when a lot of fast action stuff is going on the movie might need the higher bit rate to display the video without any flaws. The higher bit rate give the encoders more headroom.


The max video/audio rate for Blu-Ray is 54.00
The max vide/audio rate for HD-DVD is 36.55

Blu-Ray has a maxium video rate of 40.00

The maximum Dolby Digital plus rate on HD-DVD is 3 Mbps
The maximum Dolby Digital plus rate on Blu-Ray is 6 Mbps

 

[Brimstone]

I find this poll odd, as polls are used to prod for either "opinion" or a "consensus" from a general population. But the thread title seems to ask a technical question. I think a better question could be asked.

It's like you're asking, can a Toyota Corolla go to 100 km/h. Well... yah... if you press the gas peddle down far enough...

So in my opinion... yah.. i think the Cell + RSX can decode an H264 codec.

The PS3 will no doubt be able to decode a H.264 AVC movie. The question is will the PS3 be able to decode a H.264 AVC movie at the maximum video rate Blu-Ray can output which is 40 Mps.

 

[aaaaa00]

The maximum Dolby Digital plus rate on HD-DVD is 3 Mbps
The maximum Dolby Digital plus rate on Blu-Ray is 6 Mbps

Huh?

DD+ is not mandatory on Blu-Ray.

 

[zed]

i have no doubts the cell can decaode this ( or even some better codec ) the problem then is every blu-ray player must have the power of cell within it to do it, + ive been told so far the existing players dont have cell

 

[rounin]

Can these files not be on the built in harddrive ?

 

[RobertR1]

The AVC profile that will be used, which was adopted by BDA and HD DVD called "AVC HP" after AVC lost out in the DVD Fourm codec shootout, adds more items that make it more resource intensive. HD DVD likely doesn't have to worry as it's studios will use VC-1 which is much more easy on the power requirements and that HD DVD has a lower peak bandwidth for video. Yes, the Japanese releases are AVC but that's the AVC Toshiba encoder and the titles look worse than their VC-1 counterparts and it's more resource hogging as evident in the anandtech article.

Some BR native studios, who'll stay away from Mpeg2 after it getting reamed and not enough BD50 media to go around, and away from VC-1 for obvious reasons (Fox and Sony) will adopt the Panasonic AVC encoder (an example of which we've yet to see). The items that were added to AVC, like what aaaaaaao mentioned, require more resources.

Couple that with BD-J and BD-L needing to run simultaneously for certain functions along with the main feature (two more things we've yet to see examples of) and you might need a fair amount of raw power.

Depending on the effeceincy of the encoder and the fact that AVC is not a constant bit rate encoder, you're not going to get movies at 40Mbps. What you might expereince are the peaks reaching up at that level depending on the scenes.

Can the PS3 do it all without dropping frames/stuttering and fast menus? I sure hope so! Cause I don't want to play $1000+ for a standalone player!

I expect the PS3 audio to meet minimum specs for audio and the standalone player to decode the non mandatory codecs. This would make the standalone players more appealing to enthusiasts.

 

[Fafalada]

Rumor has it there's a part of the H.264 algorithm called CABAC that is really SPE unfriendly.

Rumours also said that bilinear filtering cut PS2 fillrate by factor of 4 and god knows what else.

At any rate, if my memory serves me correct a certain member of this forum (he'll correct me if I remember wrong) got 1080i H.264 running on PS2 without frame drops. If PS3 can't do this I would be worried about a lot more then its video capabilities.

 

[Brimstone]

i have no doubts the cell can decaode this ( or even some better codec ) the problem then is every blu-ray player must have the power of cell within it to do it, + ive been told so far the existing players dont have cell

Actually it's the other way around. Blu-Ray players with dedicated hardware decoders will be able to handle 40 Mps h.264/AVC. Otherwise the decoder wouldn't be in compliance with the Blu-Ray spec.

The PS3 isn't using dedicated hardware, instead the PS3 version of the CELL cpu, which has one SPU disabled, and one reserved for the Operating System. Now it will have the RSX available to assist.

Microsoft with the XB360 has had an easier time, because the HD-DVD max peak video rate is lower, and the Xenos GPU is a unified shader architechture, so all the ALU's can be used as vertex shaders. On the RSX the pixel pipelines will just sit idle, while only the vertex shaders can assist CELL.

So the more feeble HD-DVD max video rate specs and a more flexable GPU have helped Microsoft achieve full HD-DVD compliance. Sony on the other hand faces a challenge on this issue.

 

[RobertR1]

Brimstone, I'd think that if there planning to use the RSX, there would be some sort of a licensing deal for Purevideo from nvidia, similar to MS using Avivo for Xenos to handle AVC.

I have not heard such a deal or perhaps it's coming down the line?

 

[V3]

Brimstone, I'd think that if there planning to use the RSX, there would be some sort of a licensing deal for Purevideo from nvidia, similar to MS using Avivo for Xenos to handle AVC.

I have not heard such a deal or perhaps it's coming down the line?

Remember when Kutaragi said their deal with NV isn't just for GPU, but also a media processor ? That could be it, but who knows.

 

[INKster]

I've read somewhere (can't remember where now) that Nvidia had Purevideo removed from RSX -unlike it's G71 sibling-, in order to add OpenGL ES 2.0/PSGL-specific extension support, and a couple of other things.
Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong though, i don't keep tabs at all the latest rumors in the console world anymore.

 

[RobertR1]

I've read somewhere (can't remember where now) that Nvidia had Purevideo removed from RSX -unlike it's G71 sibling-, in order to add OpenGL ES 2.0/PSGL-specific extension support, and a couple of other things.
Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong though, i don't keep tabs at all the latest rumors in the console world anymore.

aah! I do recall hearing something to that nature.

Hopefully Dave is still reading this thread and can leave one of his infamous cryptic hints

 

[Sis]

At any rate, if my memory serves me correct a certain member of this forum (he'll correct me if I remember wrong) got 1080i H.264 running on PS2 without frame drops. If PS3 can't do this I would be worried about a lot more then its video capabilities.

Is h.264 the same as H.264 AVC? I thought the AVC flavor was different enough that comparing the two weren't meaningful.