Will Microsoft trump CELL by using Proximity Communication in XB720 CPU?

[Brimstone]

Sun Microsystems developed Proximity Communication and has an effort underway known as "Project Hero".

Sun has 100 engineers working on "Project Hero", developing a flat low-latency memory architecture, with mostly or fully asynchronous processors, "Proximity Communication" for ultra-fast inter-chip communication and an alternative to cache coherency. They don't consider the core design to be that important, but it may be based on Niagara's very simple 1 instruction per cycle core, which would be much easier to implement in asynchronous logic. They are also working on using interval arithmetic to give more meaningful results, and a programming model where the system does all the (low-level) optimisation.

http://www.aceshardware.com/read_news.jsp?id=75000448


Microsoft has a lot of ex-Sun engineers and it is speculating Microsoft is taking on a much more hands-on approach with their next CPU.

For more than two decades, Microsoft’s software and Intel’s processors were so wedded that the pairing came to be known as Wintel. But as that computing era wanes, Microsoft is turning to a new source of chip design: its own labs.

The design effort will initially be split between research labs at the company’s headquarters in Redmond, Wash., and its Silicon Valley campus here. Tentatively named the Computer Architecture Group, the project underscores sweeping changes in the industry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/19/t...=d494fbf129c27dc2&ei=5035&partner=MARKETWATCH

 

[patsu]

Hmm... I visited Sun Labs in Mountain View last April and saw a simple demo of Proximity Communication. It was still in its infancy. Is it ready ?

 

[almighty]

And what do you think Sony, IBM and Toshiba will come up with in the next few years?

 

[Rainbow Man]

If what they come up with is too remote from the PC/what we have now programmers are going to go through another highly visible whine-bitch cycle just like they did with the launchof these consoles.
Peace.

 

[Brimstone]

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...ximity+communication&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us

Here is an HTML link to some stuff on the "Hero Project".

http://www.ksc.re.kr/sc2004/papers/october5/(TW4-3).pdf

 

[TheChefO]

And what do you think Sony, IBM and Toshiba will come up with in the next few years?

An extension of Cell would be the obvious choice. They have invested a lot in the arch. and it is designed to scale. Not to mention the software experience and libraries which are being built now will transistion smoothly for ps4. Why would they go anywhere but Cell2.0?


This "hero" tech sounds interesting but would Sun work with MS? I thought they were "mortal enemies"?

 

[Brimstone]

This "hero" tech sounds interesting but would Sun work with MS? I thought they were "mortal enemies"?

Sun wants to make money like any other company.



Project Hero is promoting Interval arithmetic.

The Sun research engineer wants to replace the flawed floating-point math of today's computers with something called interval arithmetic. It's so accurate, Walster says, that computer simulations using this technique could reduce, and one day even eliminate, the need for independent physical verification.

...

"Intervals have the potential to change the rules of the computing game," he says. "The new rules are: 'All your floating-point speed doesn't count any more. It's just not relevant. The only speed that matters is interval speed."

http://research.sun.com/minds/2004-0527/

 

[joker454]

I've been wondering what cpu setup Microsoft would use for their next machine. AMD and Intel seem out of the question for cost reasons, and PowerPC seems to have gone as far as it can go. I was figuring/hoping that they would just throw 4 Cell's in there and be done with it. Unless IBM/Sony have exclusive rights to use it? I can't imagine they would put all their eggs in one basket though, they must have a backup plan to "Project Hero". It would be kind of amusing though if Xbox 720 ended up with Cell and Blu-ray

 

[Rangers]

I've been wondering what cpu setup Microsoft would use for their next machine. AMD and Intel seem out of the question for cost reasons, and PowerPC seems to have gone as far as it can go. I was figuring/hoping that they would just throw 4 Cell's in there and be done with it. Unless IBM/Sony have exclusive rights to use it? I can't imagine they would put all their eggs in one basket though, they must have a backup plan to "Project Hero". It would be kind of amusing though if Xbox 720 ended up with Cell and Blu-ray

Hah, no chance.

Personally, I dont think we've seen enough utilization of Cell to usher it into the next gen of consoles at all just yet. We'll see I guess. I just dont know that you see the multi-threading. It's fine to have each of the SPU's run off and do their own thing, some helping with graphics (culling, etc), others audio etc, but to me that's not giving you a true power boost. A true power boost will come from a multi-threaded engine, like in Gears of War (I assume).

It could give MS a nice ease of programmability edge to just go with a traditional AMD or maybe IBM OOOE design next time, imo. And what about that power 6 chip, I understand it has some issues for a console, but it certainly looked beastly.

Remember that MS wanted and planned on OOOE in 360, IBM just came to them late and said they couldn't do it in the constraints given, I think mainly being time. It was laid out as MS was forced to take what IBM was able to give in that rushed time frame.

 

[Deusp]

I'm not entirely sure how proximity communication has anything to do with a CPU architecture. Speaking of which, it was around this time in PS2's life that we heard about the Cell processor. I wonder if we'll hear anything soon.

 

[Fox5]

I've been wondering what cpu setup Microsoft would use for their next machine. AMD and Intel seem out of the question for cost reasons, and PowerPC seems to have gone as far as it can go. I was figuring/hoping that they would just throw 4 Cell's in there and be done with it. Unless IBM/Sony have exclusive rights to use it? I can't imagine they would put all their eggs in one basket though, they must have a backup plan to "Project Hero". It would be kind of amusing though if Xbox 720 ended up with Cell and Blu-ray

1. It'd be a major fault for AMD if they didn't push hard to get a cpu in the next Xbox.

2. How about a stripped version of one of IBM's server processors? Triple core Power 4, 5, or 6 derivative? Or an extension of the current triple core cpu but with more cores and OOE?

 

[Deusp]

Hah, no chance.

Don't count it out just yet. IBM is currently continuing development of the Cell architecture. There's already a Cell2 processor on the roadmap capable of delivering 1 TFLOP of power, available some time in 2009. No other architecture out there right now is even close to competing with that kind of power with the possible exception of Intel's 80-core chip. Almost certainly IBM will not develop a completely separate yet equivalent architecture side-by-side with Cell unless MS forks over a ton of money. So for MS, they either adopt the Cell processor or spend a lot of time and money trying to make something just as good.

Personally, I dont think we've seen enough utilization of Cell to usher it into the next gen of consoles at all just yet. We'll see I guess. I just dont know that you see the multi-threading. It's fine to have each of the SPU's run off and do their own thing, some helping with graphics (culling, etc), others audio etc, but to me that's not giving you a true power boost. A true power boost will come from a multi-threaded engine, like in Gears of War (I assume).

It could give MS a nice ease of programmability edge to just go with a traditional AMD or maybe IBM OOOE design next time, imo. And what about that power 6 chip, I understand it has some issues for a console, but it certainly looked beastly.

Remember that MS wanted and planned on OOOE in 360, IBM just came to them late and said they couldn't do it in the constraints given, I think mainly being time. It was laid out as MS was forced to take what IBM was able to give in that rushed time frame.

It's no longer a question of personal desire but manufacturing necessity. Superfast OOOE processors eat up way too much power and cost way too much to make to be competitive with heavily multi-core chips. A Power6 or Power7 CPU may be easier to program for, but will lose by an order of magnitude in performance.

 

[Rangers]

1. It'd be a major fault for AMD if they didn't push hard to get a cpu in the next Xbox.

2. How about a stripped version of one of IBM's server processors? Triple core Power 4, 5, or 6 derivative? Or an extension of the current triple core cpu but with more cores and OOE?

The issue might be whether AMD/Intel allow IP ownage on the CPU. IBM does, and that was a direct reason why they are in these consoles. I know Intel at least was resistant if not ruled out the idea.

Bill Gates apparantly feels some loyalty to Intel, it was mentioned in Takahashi's book that he made a personal last ditch appeal to see if the Xbox 360 team could get Intel in the box, which of course didn't work out.

 

[Rangers]

Don't count it out just yet. IBM is currently continuing development of the Cell architecture. There's already a Cell2 processor on the roadmap capable of delivering 1 TFLOP of power, available some time in 2009. No other architecture out there right now is even close to competing with that kind of power with the possible exception of Intel's 80-core chip. Almost certainly IBM will not develop a completely separate yet equivalent architecture side-by-side with Cell unless MS forks over a ton of money. So for MS, they either adopt the Cell processor or spend a lot of time and money trying to make something just as good.



It's no longer a question of personal desire but manufacturing necessity. Superfast OOOE processors eat up way too much power and cost way too much to make to be competitive with heavily multi-core chips. A Power6 or Power7 CPU may be easier to program for, but will lose by an order of magnitude in performance.

I'm not sure I buy that. Still remember, if MS had it's way OOOE would be in 360 right now, and I bet programmers would be loving it.

Carmack has also stated that desktop CPU's will be twice as fast as Cell/Xcpu in the near future (remember, he said something about taking advantage of multi-core on the consoles, and then dropped some remark that near-term desktop single-core processors would likely be twice as fast anyway, and might not even need multithreading to match what Xb/PS3 will be doing)

Cell can qoute a lot of flops but I dont see that power in action. I'm not at all sold on the uber-ness of that architecture just yet. If you told me Xb720 was using Cells, I'd be pretty unhappy at this time. Maybe that will change if I see big results from PS3 going forward.

I'd wager given MS's CPU dev team that has been widely reported on, there's no way you'll see Cell in Xbox, if for pride alone.

 

[Deusp]

I'm not sure I buy that. Still remember, if MS had it's way OOOE would be in 360 right now, and I bet programmers would be loving it.

And Xbox 360 would cost $800. It's manufacturing necessity, not programming wishes that rule future CPU architectures.

Carmack has also stated that desktop CPU's will be twice as fast as Cell/Xcpu in the near future (remember, he said something about taking advantage of multi-core on the consoles, and then dropped some remark that near-term desktop single-core processors would likely be twice as fast anyway, and might not even need multithreading to match what Xb/PS3 will be doing)

Cell can qoute a lot of flops but I dont see that power in action. I'm not at all sold on the uber-ness of that architecture just yet. If you told me Xb720 was using Cells, I'd be pretty unhappy at this time. Maybe that will change if I see big results from PS3 going forward.

Carmack is simply wrong, as some posts on this board can attest:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=39552

This is not to suggest Carmack is completely wrong, since he does have a point. Unfortunately for MS, future versions of the Cell processor will get you into the TeraFLOP range whereas OOOE CPUs won't come even remotely close. I can't imagine what kind of PR nightmare MS would have trying to spin the fact that Xbox 3 has an order of magnitude less CPU power than the PS4.

I'd wager given MS's CPU dev team that has been widely reported on, there's no way you'll see Cell in Xbox, if for pride alone.

All I can say is that it would take some serious pride to make them do that. Cell took about 400 million dollars and half a decade to develop. MS has very little hardware experience, so they are doubly worse off if they tried to do this themselves and screw up. Possibly they could get AMD or Intel to commit to making one, but I can't imagine either one being cheap.

 

[inefficient]

Never bet on SUN

I'm not sure I buy that. Still remember, if MS had it's way OOOE would be in 360 right now, and I bet programmers would be loving it.

Not the ones who care about pushing the envelope.

Carmack has also stated that desktop CPU's will be twice as fast as Cell/Xcpu in the near future (remember, he said something about taking advantage of multi-core on the consoles, and then dropped some remark that near-term desktop single-core processors would likely be twice as fast anyway, and might not even need multithreading to match what Xb/PS3 will be doing)

You'll have to back that up with a link because it sounds too ridiculous to be true.

I'd wager given MS's CPU dev team that has been widely reported on, there's no way you'll see Cell in Xbox, if for pride alone.

Sounds exactly like what Apple fans were saying a few years ago.



Anyway, as usual SUN will design for thier target audeince and that is institutions running business applications on servers. And as usual, nothing about their new CPU design shows any promise of being good for multimedia performance. Performance vs Cost on SUN CPUs have been a joke for many many years now. Expecting technology for a high performance CPU for used in an embedded device from SUN can only lead to disapointment.

 

[Rangers]

You guys are talking in hypothetical gigaflops which are completely meaningless in real gaming.

That is why Carmack can make the statement he did, and it be true. Because he's not talking about gigaflops.

You can get a lot of gigaflops out of Cell in a very elaborate, trivialized application. Break small chunks of code off for each SPU, have them sit there in the tiny local store and iterate. That has nothing to do with real world games programming.

And Xbox 360 would cost $800. It's manufacturing necessity, not programming wishes that rule future CPU architectures.

Not true, die size wise an Athlon 64X2 compares very favorably to XCPU, and would probably be more powerful in real terms.

Anyways, to some extent I think the CPU's in future machines are a lot less relevant than the GPU's, and the GPU's are mostly just a case of throwing transistors at the problem. It may not be sexy but it's the truth.

Edit: looked up A64X2 with 1MB cache die size, it is bigger than I thought, at 199mm^2, 233million trans. Xcpu is ~160mm^2, 165 million. X2 is bigger, but not prohibitively so I think, considering it's probably about Cell size.

 

[Brimstone]

I've been wondering what cpu setup Microsoft would use for their next machine. AMD and Intel seem out of the question for cost reasons, and PowerPC seems to have gone as far as it can go. I was figuring/hoping that they would just throw 4 Cell's in there and be done with it. Unless IBM/Sony have exclusive rights to use it? I can't imagine they would put all their eggs in one basket though, they must have a backup plan to "Project Hero". It would be kind of amusing though if Xbox 720 ended up with Cell and Blu-ray

I've never come across any info of Project Hero and Microsoft working together. Project Hero is just a Sun initative. Although it does involve engineering both hardware and software aspects.


So just to be clear, there is no direct connection between Sun and Microsoft, I probably just worded things in an unclear manner.


Of course Sun isn't in the greatest finacial shape these days. Microsoft of the other hand a loaded with plenty of cash to fund anything.

 

[Paul]

Why would they go anywhere but Cell2.0?

Nail hits head.

With the PS4 you're going to see a vastly more powerful Cell based processor(think more SPE's, e-DRAM, etc) with the inclusion IMHO a much more custom more or less Cell based graphics IC with nVIDIA working on the pixel shading end of it.

 

[Rangers]

Nail hits head.

With the PS4 you're going to see a vastly more powerful Cell based processor(think more SPE's, e-DRAM, etc) with the inclusion IMHO a much more custom more or less Cell based graphics IC with nVIDIA working on the pixel shading end of it.

Assuming the law of diminishing returns isn't taking hold, and Sony somewhat drops out of the hardware race as predicted.

Many on this forum are saying GPU's wont get much more powerful, so if they are right.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=958060&postcount=6

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=958067&postcount=7

With the PS4 you're going to see a vastly more powerful Cell based processor(think more SPE's, e-DRAM, etc) with the inclusion IMHO a much more custom more or less Cell based graphics IC with nVIDIA working on the pixel shading end of it.

The heat and power requirments of such a wish list are just growing too large. It doesn't seem things will go that way with Sony, but perhaps they will focus on lower power consumption, noise-reduced cooling, and performance per watt than raw performance.