Why we're the only intelligent life in our galaxy

[Tahir2]

Chalnoth what about the possibility that intelligent life (extra terrestial) is already here but has not announced itself? This is likely given our aggressive nature - perhaps they are waiting for us to evolve out of the desire to annihalate and destroy anything we do not understand. Or maybe not.

The problem *I* have with your open brainstorm is that only you have the correct answers to what is acceptable in your mind and even if an equally intelligent but flawed argument was made you will not accept it.

Unless I completely agree with what you are saying you won't change your mind so... I agree with everything you have said, and I still haven't been able to change your mind.

Still it is pretty interesting learning the different ways of looking at this idea by different people on this board.

 

[KimB]

Chalnoth what about the possibility that intelligent life (extra terrestial) is already here but has not announced itself? This is likely given our aggressive nature - perhaps they are waiting for us to evolve out of the desire to annihalate and destroy anything we do not understand. Or maybe not.

If they were here, on Earth, they would most likely have come long before we evolved, just because there's a much greater span of time before we evolved than after (hundreds of millions of years of habitability, vs. about a hundred thousand years or less).

And if they arrived prior to the existence of any intelligent species on the planet, I find it exceedingly likely that they would simply take the planet as their own, supressing further evolution of an intelligent species (us).

The problem *I* have with your open brainstorm is that only you have the correct answers to what is acceptable in your mind and even if an equally intelligent but flawed argument was made you will not accept it.

I can be convinced. I have been convinced of my mistakes many times (there were a couple on this thread). Perhaps it just means that it would take a little bit more work to convince me of some of the bigger points I have made (though personally I don't know why anybody would spend a tremendous amount of time on this subject....it's all hypothetical and untestable anyway).

 

[Carl B]

The desire to spread is entirely a cultural one. And it is only natural that those cultures that want to spread themselves are going to become the ones that come to prominence. Any full planet is bound to have many diverse cultures.

A colony is similar. Though it may have a somewhat more uniform culture than a home planet, it was born from a culture that wanted to spread, and thus it is exceedingly likely that one of the child cultures will want to spread as well.

I really feel though that all these races/cultures we're talking about are too based in our own understanding of what life on Earth is like, and we're just jacking up the intelligence quotients. These things could be like nothing else; intelligent rocks or something based on silicon rather than carbon - who knows? And all they do is lie around and communicate telepathically. I mean do I think that has a chance of being what we encounter? Ok no I don't - but you get what I'm saying. If we're talking alien, let's be ready for alien!

Also speaking of Earth-life analogues, what if the intelligent life was like a hive-mind, but they required a certain plant or something that only grew on their own planet and could not be transported for whatever bizarre reasons? Another outlandish scenario sure, but I mean I really think we have to get outside the box here.

What's our definition of intelligence anyway? Is a dolphin intelligent life by our criteria? Self-awareness? What are we looking for?

And one last thing, you can't attach humanity's will for expansion to these aliens while at the same time ruling out OpenGL's point on self-destruction; afterall why should these aliens have it both ways if we can't?

 

[Tahir2]

they [ET] would most likely have come long before we evolved

And they [ET] (albeit less likely) might be here right now reading this thread.

We are dealing with probability alone. Since we are have you read, Are We Alone?
This book also deals with probabilities but of the likelihood there is other intelligent life out there that can communicate with us and also the design of the Universe using physics and mainly mathematics.

 

[KimB]

I really feel though that all these races/cultures we're talking about are too based in our own understanding of what life on Earth is like, and we're just jacking up the intelligence quotients. These things could be like nothing else; intelligent rocks or something based on silicon rather than carbon - who knows? And all they do is lie around and communicate telepathically. I mean do I think that has a chance of being what we encounter? Ok no I don't - but you get what I'm saying. If we're talking alien, let's be ready for alien!

Well, right, I'm prefacing much of my argument on the idea that the kind of life you see on Earth is the kind that is most likely to evolve anywhere. As a quick example, every person involved in chemistry with whom I have talked about the possibility of silicon-based life forms has totally discounted it as impossible: silicon doesn't come close to the chemical variety offered with carbon.

Telepathic communication? How would something like that evolve? What would be the medium through which telepathy is performed? One likely source would be low-frequency electromagnetic waves (like radio waves), but how would that be generated in a biological life form?

Personally, I think that telepathy is pure science fiction, with the possible exception of some time in the future when we may be able to implant radio transmitters/receivers connected directly to our minds. But more importantly, why would any form of telepathy prevent a species from wanting to expand?

Also speaking of Earth-life analogues, what if the intelligent life was like a hive-mind, but they required a certain plant or something that only grew on their own planet and could not be transported for whatever bizarre reasons? Another outlandish scenario sure, but I mean I really think we have to get outside the box here.

If they're intelligent, they'd find a way. That's what intelligence always does.

What's our definition of intelligence anyway? Is a dolphin intelligent life by our criteria? Self-awareness? What are we looking for?

The easily-recognizable definition: intelligence = having a world-spanning civilization.

And one last thing, you can't attach humanity's will for expansion to these aliens while at the same time ruling out OpenGL's point on self-destruction; afterall why should these aliens have it both ways if we can't?

Once again, I'm not attempting to attach humanity's will for expansion. I'm attempting to argue that any intelligent life form that is the dominant species on its planet (the only kind likely to be recognized as intelligent) could have only gotten there through expansion, and thus there would be an ingrained capacity for expansion.

Now, it seems likely that the spreading of an intelligent species throughout the home world is likely to happen a very long time (in the time scale of the species) before space travel is achieved. So in the intervening years, it is possible that some of this will for expansion will be diluted out of the various cultures of the home world. However, my claim is that only those cultures which thrive on expansion will come to prominence in the world, even very long after the intial expansion has stopped.

 

[Frank]

Telepathic communication? How would something like that evolve? What would be the medium through which telepathy is performed? One likely source would be low-frequency electromagnetic waves (like radio waves), but how would that be generated in a biological life form?

He was talking about silicon life. Telepathy by radio could be as easy for them as it is hard for us.

 

[KimB]

1. I'm pretty sure silicon life is impossible.
2. I don't see why there would be any difference whatsoever.

 

[Carl B]

1. I'm pretty sure silicon life is impossible.
2. I don't see why there would be any difference whatsoever.

Silicon life isn't 'impossible' - what it is is likely 'inferior' in a sense. Obviously traditional respiration wouldn't be possible either, but I'm tossing all of that out the window here and just talking about the fringe possibilities. Ok but forget the silicon-based thing for now, I was just tossing ideas around.

On telepathic communication: again I'm just trying to get you out of the box, but what about sonar on our own planet? Maybe the life could develop receptors such that wave pulses emanating from members of the same species could be modulated and pulsed to resemble language on the receivers end. You've got to broaden your horizons here!

Anyway as for the definition being 'world-spanning civilization,' so what was stone age man non-intelligent then? Honestly if we found a species as ostensibly intelligent as any mammal on this planet, I would say that the chances of finding beings of greater intelligence than that shoots way way way up.

I'm looking here at life on the order of bacteria to be the 'alternative' to a galaxy that might support multiple intelligent species; anything in between lends itself to the possibility of the later.

PS - We're not just limited to silicon-based either mind you, that's just the popular alternative to throw out. But ammonia-based and boron-based are both valid candidates as well, dependent on environment and presence.

 

[KimB]

On telepathic communication: again I'm just trying to get you out of the box, but what about sonar on our own planet? Maybe the life could develop receptors such that wave pulses emanating from members of the same species could be modulated and pulsed to resemble language on the receivers end. You've got to broaden your horizons here!

I'm not saying that the life on other planets won't be interesting and different. I'm saying that it's likely to have the same basic drives as life on our planet.

Anyway as for the definition being 'world-spanning civilization,' so what was stone age man non-intelligent then?

Yes. Intelligence is as much a social construct as an inherent one. And besides, I think when people think about intelligent extra-terrestrial life, they're typically thinking about some other civilization that we could eventually learn to communicate with. So we may as well limit it to that, instead of worrying about species that may potentially develop a civilization.

I'm looking here at life on the order of bacteria to be the 'alternative' to a galaxy that might support multiple intelligent species; anything in between lends itself to the possibility of the later.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

PS - We're not just limited to silicon-based either mind you, that's just the popular alternative to throw out. But ammonia-based and boron-based are both valid candidates as well, dependent on environment and presence.

This is directly contrary to what I've been told by everybody I've known in the field of chemistry. The diversity of molecules that can be created from carbon is just tremendous compared to any other single element. You need this diversity for viable life.

 

[KimB]

By the way, here's one reason why silicon-based life is extremely unlikely:

Conceivably, some strange life-forms might be built from silicone-like substances were it not for an apparently fatal flaw in silicon's biological credentials. This is its powerful affinity for oxygen. When carbon is oxidized during the respiratory process of a terrestrial organism (see respiration), it becomes the gas carbon dioxide – a waste material that is easy for a creature to remove from its body. The oxidation of silicon, however, yields a solid because, immediately upon formation, silicon dioxide organizes itself into a lattice in which each silicon atom is surrounded by four oxygens. Disposing of such a substance would pose a major respiratory challenge.

From http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/siliconlife.html

There is other evidence posted there.

Boron and Ammonia are even worse as candidates.

 

[Carl B]

You know what though? That very site you linked verifies that Ammonia and Boron *are* candidates, and better than Silicon as well.

On Boron:

Boron is one of the few elements that seems to offer a plausible alternative to carbon as a basis for life elsewhere in the universe.

On Ammonia, I'll include a little bit more of it:

On the plus side, liquid ammonia does have some striking chemical similarities with water. There is a whole system of organic and inorganic chemistry that takes place in ammono, instead of aqueous, solution.4, 5 Ammonia has the further advantage of dissolving most organics as well as or better than water,6 and it has the unprecedented ability to dissolve many elemental metals, including sodium, magnesium, and aluminum, directly into solution; moreover, several other elements, such as iodine, sulfur, selenium, and phosphorus are also somewhat soluble in ammonia with minimal reaction. Each of these elements is important to life chemistry and the pathways of prebiotic synthesis. The objection is often raised that the liquidity range of liquid ammonia – 44°C at 1 atm pressure – is rather low for biology. But, as with water, raising the planetary surface pressure broadens the liquidity range. At 60 atm, for example, which is below the pressures available on Jupiter or Venus, ammonia boils at 98°C instead of -33°C, giving a liquidity range of 175°C. Ammonia-based life need not necessarily be low temperature life!

.....

On the down side, there are problems with the notion of ammonia as a basis for life. These center principally upon the fact that the heat of vaporization of ammonia is only half that of water and its surface tension only one third as much. Consequently, the hydrogen bonds that exist between ammonia molecule are much weaker than those in water so that ammonia would be less able to concentrate non-polar molecules through a hydrophobic effect. Lacking this ability, questions hang over how well ammonia could hold prebiotic molecules together sufficiently well to allow the formation of a self-reproducing system.9

Here is what I am saying essentially: thirty years ago people thought that there could be no life on the surface/floor of the deep ocean, as there was too little light for photosynthesis, and too little heat. What happens? They discover an entire ecosystem built upon chemosynthetic organisms living around deep sea vents, and now the theory has been up-ended on itself to the tune of they think a huge percentage of the globe's biomass now exists around these deep sea vents.

Science will ever take us forward, and I think it's premature to judge as predetermined the entirety of the extent of possibilities for 'alternative life' based soley on our present understandings.

But again I don't even care, and was just raising the whole 'silicon, boron, ammonia' thing for the sake of putting it up. I believe that alien life is likely not because of these elements, but due to the statistical plausibility of such. I also have a lower criteria for what qualifies as 'intelligent,' so call me easy in that regard. Afterall let's say there were some alien species that *was* intelligent out there, and in fact so advanced that similar to your own criteria, they in fact do not believe we meet the bullet points for 'intelligent life.' Are we not then? Maybe not. But honestly I think something like self awareness is a more widely recognized benchmark for sentience.

 

[KimB]

From that text, ammonia wouldn't be an alternative to the carbon found on Earth-bound life forms, it would be an alternative to water. This only makes sense, as ammonia is a molecule (NH3). But it has significant problems, as outlined in the text.

As for Boron, as is mentioned in that link, it's scarce. It isn't scarce because of the Earth's history: it's scarse because of the processes which create the heavier elements. It's highly unlikely to ever find Boron in any reasonable density compared to Carbon.

Edit:
By the way, though, I'm sure that when we develop instruments and experiments capable of detecting life-supporting planets, they will be capable of detecting these remote possibilities just as well as other carbon/water-based life.

 

[Carl B]

From that text, ammonia wouldn't be an alternative to the carbon found on Earth-bound life forms, it would be an alternative to water. This only makes sense, as ammonia is a molecule (NH3). But it has significant problems, as outlined in the text.

As for Boron, as is mentioned in that link, it's scarce. It isn't scarce because of the Earth's history: it's scarse because of the processes which create the heavier elements. It's highly unlikely to ever find Boron in any reasonable density compared to Carbon.

Edit:
By the way, though, I'm sure that when we develop instruments and experiments capable of detecting life-supporting planets, they will be capable of detecting these remote possibilities just as well as other carbon/water-based life.

With Boron I mentioned in my original post that it would be dependent on quantities present, but I don't think it's out of the scope of things to envision some solor system where a couple of asteroids crashed into the right places would get things going. Afterall how much iridium is present naturally on Earth? None. But it's coming from somehwere! We're pretty lucky in terms of being pelted in truth (in that we're not more frequently pelted in this epoch), and I'm sure there are plenty of planets out there in different solor systems with some denser element make-ups.

Anyway I really wasn't trying to take this thing down the path of 'rock creatures' or anything, I was really just trying to emphasize that just as people first saw some of the stuff living in the ocean and basically said "what the hell," thus should we prepare ourselves for increased levels of strangeness from life not even native to our planet.

I mean there's not much to say honestly - I think the chances are high(ish), and you think they're low. Unless we go cryogenic, we'll probably not have gloating rights the either of us anytime soon.

 

[KimB]

With Boron I mentioned in my original post that it would be dependent on quantities present, but I don't think it's out of the scope of things to envision some solor system where a couple of asteroids crashed into the right places would get things going. Afterall how much iridium is present naturally on Earth? None. But it's coming from somehwere! We're pretty lucky in terms of being pelted in truth (in that we're not more frequently pelted in this epoch), and I'm sure there are plenty of planets out there in different solor systems with some denser element make-ups.

There just isn't that much boron anywhere, though, because once you have a star that is capable of fusing to boron, it immediately goes all the way to carbon. You'd need to have some sort of specific, rare process to gather the boron required in a small area to start life off, and the unlikeliness of that compared to carbon life coming to being means that carbon-based life is almost certain to come to dominate long before boron-based life gets a chance.

Anyway I really wasn't trying to take this thing down the path of 'rock creatures' or anything, I was really just trying to emphasize that just as people first saw some of the stuff living in the ocean and basically said "what the hell," thus should we prepare ourselves for increased levels of strangeness from life not even native to our planet.

Well, if we ever get to the point of being able to colonize and explore the entire galaxy, it's possible we may find a few packets of life of these bizarre forms. But it's highly unlikely that any will be developed past even bacteria-like life (since they're less optimal than carbon/water-based life, and even with finding carbon-based life on other worlds it's most likely to be bacteria-like only).

 

[Carl B]

There just isn't that much boron anywhere, though, because once you have a star that is capable of fusing to boron, it immediately goes all the way to carbon. You'd need to have some sort of specific, rare process to gather the boron required in a small area to start life off, and the unlikeliness of that compared to carbon life coming to being means that carbon-based life is almost certain to come to dominate long before boron-based life gets a chance.

Ok that point is certainly fair enough.

Well, if we ever get to the point of being able to colonize and explore the entire galaxy, it's possible we may find a few packets of life of these bizarre forms. But it's highly unlikely that any will be developed past even bacteria-like life (since they're less optimal than carbon/water-based life, and even with finding carbon-based life on other worlds it's most likely to be bacteria-like only).

I was actually talking about carbon based life again rather than the 'exotics,' but we shall see. Or... we won't.

 

[KimB]

I was actually talking about carbon based life again rather than the 'exotics,' but we shall see. Or... we won't.

Well, we aren't going to see. But our children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children's children might (maybe that was a bit too many? Naahhhh).

 

[NANOTEC]

The desire to spread is entirely a cultural one. And it is only natural that those cultures that want to spread themselves are going to become the ones that come to prominence. Any full planet is bound to have many diverse cultures.

A colony is similar. Though it may have a somewhat more uniform culture than a home planet, it was born from a culture that wanted to spread, and thus it is exceedingly likely that one of the child cultures will want to spread as well.

This assumes the culture allows multi-cultures or have a use for it or even needs it.

And if they arrived prior to the existence of any intelligent species on the planet, I find it exceedingly likely that they would simply take the planet as their own, supressing further evolution of an intelligent species (us).

But why would a super evolved species want to take the planet? Why would a super evolved species want to suppress evolution of other lifeforms? Why not just plant the seeds for life and move on? Maybe this other species have different goals and purpose?

 

[KimB]

This assumes the culture allows multi-cultures or have a use for it or even needs it.

It pretty much has to, just because you can't realistically have all life connected together at once (unless The Borg are out there )

But why would a super evolved species want to take the planet? Why would a super evolved species want to suppress evolution of other lifeforms? Why not just plant the seeds for life and move on? Maybe this other species have different goals and purpose?

Well, why would a super evolved species care about other species? Do we care about ants?

The suppression of evolution of other intelligent life forms would be a result of colonization, but wouldn't be the intent of the colonizing species.

 

[NANOTEC]

It pretty much has to, just because you can't realistically have all life connected together at once (unless The Borg are out there )

It may be possible that a super species would want to have full control of their reproduction process instead of leaving it up to chance. Just a simple human example, if a dictator on earth killed off all other races except one, you'd have a single culture. Everything would be strictly controlled. With forced genetic selection everyone would be homogenous.

Well, why would a super evolved species care about other species? Do we care about ants?

Well I'm not saying they would care, maybe they don't, but just because the species doesn't care doesn't mean they would destroy it if there was no need to destroy. Colonization doesn't necessarily require the destruction of another species especially intelligent ones.

The suppression of evolution of other intelligent life forms would be a result of colonization, but wouldn't be the intent of the colonizing species.

Just a hypothetical example but even here on earth if we discovered another intelligent life form do you think its evolution would be suppressed? Let's say monkeys somehow evolved to the point of being as intelligent as humans. What happens? Do we kill them because they compete with us and look different? Do you envision earth being void of other organisms in the distant future?

 

[nutball]

This thread is very interesting ... for more than just the subject matter.

It seems to be saying a lot about what people want to be true. It also seems to show how deeply certain ideas from science fiction have become engrained in common culture.