Whites not qualified to teach Black history?!

[Don't Ask]

First of all, we're talking about black history, not black culture.

Not that big of a difference.

And a black teacher doesn't have any personal experience beyond his/her living years and in whatever specific geographical location he lives in, either.

Which still gives him more right to teach black history/culture.

And the black teacher in question knows something first hand about slavery?

Coming from a time in the world not too long ago where blacks rode in the back of the bus, blacks weren't aloud in white theatres, etc., I'm sure most of those older teachers experienced first hand what it is like to be chained down. It really isn't that much different by today standards, there are only more laws protecting them. Racism is almost as strong as it was back then, today, only more hidden.

Neither does the black person.

Sure he does, slavery/Racism would be a key figure in teaching black history. It's filled with it. I've had a white history teacher teach black history, 4 of them actually. It always seems they can't help themselves find some excuse for why their parents and grandparents were so against anything different. I understand that's not all whites, but what's the point in risking it? Besides, most of them are damn good at hiding it.

Every single person has their own perspective on history / culture. Ask 10 different black people about insight into specific clutural / historical issues, and you're going to get different answers / perspectives depeding on several factors.

Blacks have more in common with their own history than whites do. Yes, because they are black. There is nothing wrong with a black person having pride in his own culture, even if it is before is time.
Basically what you're saying is, I don't have the right to be proud of who I am, because my blood was never anywhere near where it started off.

Either way, how do you know if the black teacher ISN'T racist?

He may have more right but that doesn't make it right. If he IS racist he most likely won't last there long, VS. a racist white teacher, which would most likely be given more of a chance to apologize. Blacks and whites have different outlooks on life. The blacks in the history books probably have very much in common about how they view their lives with todays african-americans. It's important that the teacher can connect those feelings to the classroom.

And how do you know the black person isn't racist either? Is it better for a racist black person to teach black history, vs. a racist white person?

Well ok, maybe not entirely, but I'm not asking for a racist black teacher.

Are you serious?

You're right that's impossible.

How do you know a black teacher won't try to insinuate in some subliminal way that whites are the root of all of black's problems throughout history?

For the most part, it's true. I haven't met a black person with that frame of mind, though. Most of them are brought up better than that.

If we're talking about a course in "Black Culture in Today's Inner Cities", being tought by a black person who lives in today's inner cities, you might have somewhat of a point. But then, that same person isn't qualified to teach about "black culture in today's elite society" either.

Ok obviously there is something you really don't understand. As I said emotion, I meant these people have pride in who they are and where they came from. They are proud for their people struggling to make the world a better place for them. They speak about it with that pride, they feel it, with that pride. I believe they DO have the right to be proud.

You are right though, a black person would only have his/her experiences to qualify them which in most cases, absolutely does. I'm tired of explaining it but, racism plays a crucial role in their lives, against them. The same racism as their ancestors have endured. Most of them understand what it means to be misunderstood, in the same way their ancestors have. It's a never-ending battle. Again, blacks relate better to their own people.

And why the hell are you throwing this "inner city" bullshit around? I'm not talking about ANY black person off the street, only the EDUCATED ones. The EDUCATED ones should teach about black history. I don't want some crack head who went to community college because he was too lazy to get a real high school diploma, preaching to me how hard he's got it, either. That's not to say that the people are not educated in the inner cities, it's just to a lesser degree. That's like telling me I think it's ok for a guy who dropped out of school in the 4th grade and is hooked on drugs has the right to teach a math class all because his father is John Nash.

What is "black culture?"

My point exactly.

Where are the courses in "white" culture?

Mostly every other day is white history day, you just can't call it that.

Agreed. And african-americans are not by default better teachers about african-american history.

Again, yeah, they can be.

The white and ethnic outlook on life and its values are absolutely different in almost every way. Whites don't want to be seen as doing any wrong doing, and the ethnics don't want to be seen as who's pointing the finger.

 

[Don't Ask]

Heh .. why isn't there a italian history month, I feel like my culture was being side lined for the afircan culture. Thats not right is it ? Why isn't there a channel called wet ? Why all the double standards. Aren't we all equal ?

Do you really think you need that? I mean, you already run las vegas, LOL!

 

[jvd]

Heh .. why isn't there a italian history month, I feel like my culture was being side lined for the afircan culture. Thats not right is it ? Why isn't there a channel called wet ? Why all the double standards. Aren't we all equal ?

Do you really think you need that? I mean, you already run las vegas, LOL!

hey i don't know what your talking about .... you don't work for the fbi do u .... DO YOU !!!!! hehe na


I'm shocked that you would use such a stereo type of italians . I feel i should sue you for defimation of charactor .


(Yes i can't spell , neibor just had a baby , haven't slept in 2 days )

 

[jvd]

Don't Ask I am sorry . But you sound like the most bigiot person I have ever heard talk .

Are you serious with this

I haven't met a black person with that frame of mind, though. Most of them are brought up better than that.

Are you trying to say that black people are raised better than whites ? That whites are inferior to black people. That we are all bigiots ? Because thats what this sounds like to me .


You make it sound as if white people were never slaves , never lived in a slum , were never shunned . You sound very ignorant.

 

[Don't Ask]

lol that's just funny, I'm not even going to reply to that, that's pathetic.

 

[notAFanB]

Joe DeFuria wrote:

First of all, we're talking about black history, not black culture.


Not that big of a difference.

while not unrelated (all that precedes influences the present after all) they can be seperated for acdemic study and weighted to slant either side.

And a black teacher doesn't have any personal experience beyond his/her living years and in whatever specific geographical location he lives in, either.


Which still gives him more right to teach black history/culture.

clarify what you mean by 'right' here pls. while it might be the case that cultural knowledge first hand might be advantageous for this post. this is be definition a 'merit' not a 'right.

Sure he does, slavery/Racism would be a key figure in teaching black history. It's filled with it. I've had a white history teacher teach black history, 4 of them actually. It always seems they can't help themselves find some excuse for why their parents and grandparents were so against anything different. I understand that's not all whites, but what's the point in risking it? Besides, most of them are damn good at hiding it.

was this 'excusing' explicite or not?

Basically what you're saying is, I don't have the right to be proud of who I am, because my blood was never anywhere near where it started off.

I don't think thats what he is saying.

Mostly every other day is white history day, you just can't call it that.

can you give a couple of examples? this is not a challenge just clarification on your view.

thanks

 

[Joe DeFuria]

First of all, we're talking about black history, not black culture.

Not that big of a difference.

Um, of course it's a big difference.

History is a set of facts based on historical action. Culture is "socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought. "

You can try and understand certain aspects of culture by studying history. They are related, but certainly different things.

And as I said, "black culture" is about as ambiguous as "white culture." There is significant cultural diveristy within racial groups.

Which still gives him more right to teach black history/culture.

No, it does not. Certainly not black histtory. A black person might be more qualified to teach about "black culture", depending specifically on the individual, and his/her relationship to the specific culture being taught.

Coming from a time in the world not too long ago where blacks rode in the back of the bus, blacks weren't aloud in white theatres, etc.,

Was that black not allows to ride in the back of the bus?

I'm sure most of those older teachers experienced first hand what it is like to be chained down.

And I'm sure there are also whites who who witnessed it, whites who were against it, etc.

It really isn't that much different by today standards, there are only more laws protecting them. Racism is almost as strong as it was back then, today, only more hidden.

Right, so the core of black culture is racism then? And you must be a victim of black racism to teach about it? Do these black teachers teach about reverse discrimination? Do they support quotas and other affirmative action efforts? Do they teach that "real blacks" support such things, and if you don't, you're an "uncle Tom?", and aren't part of the "real, black culture?"

Blacks have more in common with their own history than whites do. Yes, because they are black.

Sigh. I have more in common with the Mafia then. I'll be damned if I have more right to teach a course in organized crime or Italian American history.

There is nothing wrong with a black person having pride in his own culture, even if it is before is time.
Basically what you're saying is, I don't have the right to be proud of who I am, because my blood was never anywhere near where it started off.

Who said you don't have a right to be proud of anything?



What you are saying is that someone who doesn't have a BIAS TOWARD BLACK culture, isn't as qualified to teach it as someone who does? Does someone who is proud of being a Nazi have more right to teach about Nazism? No...all that does is more or less guarnatee that one particular point of view is being taught.

He may have more right but that doesn't make it right. If he IS racist he most likely won't last there long, VS. a racist white teacher, which would most likely be given more of a chance to apologize.

Oh my God...are you serious? In this age where people are afraid to fire ANY minority, justified or not, due to law-suits, etc? I can guarantee you that minorities, women, older folks....are ALL MORE LIKELY to retain their jobs than the "typical white male."

Blacks and whites have different outlooks on life.

Says who?
And what is this different outlook on life? I never know that the color of one's skin is what defines a different outlook on life. I thought this was an individual pursuit

Well ok, maybe not entirely, but I'm not asking for a racist black teacher.

And I'm not asking for a white racist teacher either.

How do you know a black teacher won't try to insinuate in some subliminal way that whites are the root of all of black's problems throughout history?

For the most part, it's true. I haven't met a black person with that frame of mind, though. Most of them are brought up better than that.

I can't believe I just read that. So, you're of that frame of mind, but you know that most blacks aren't? And now we need black teachers for black history, so they can convey the proper message that whites were and are the root of black's problems.

Ok obviously there is something you really don't understand. As I said emotion, I meant these people have pride in who they are and where they came from.

Ah...yes. Emotion. A liberal's best friend. When facts and logic dont work, hit 'em with emotion.

They are proud for their people struggling to make the world a better place for them. They speak about it with that pride, they feel it, with that pride. I believe they DO have the right to be proud.

Who said they don't? And why is it that the "black leaders" of today don't seem to have much Pride in successful blacks like Powell, Thomas, Rice, etc? Don't THEY have a right to be proud?

You do know that excessive pride is actually a bad thing, don't you? Again, Pride is not a prerequisite for teaching. All it does is more or less guarantee that what is taught, is taught with a certain bias.

You are right though, a black person would only have his/her experiences to qualify them which in most cases, absolutely does. I'm tired of explaining it but, racism plays a crucial role in their lives, against them. The same racism as their ancestors have endured.

No, I don't believe it's the same racism that their ancestors endured. Not by a long shot. Of course there still is racism. There's also religious persecution, other ethnic persecution of ALL groups in one form or another.

There should come a point where blacks STOP defining their culture as that of the "persecuted." The sooner you (personally) do that, the sooner you can actually get on with your life.

And why the hell are you throwing this "inner city" bullshit around?

Because "inner city" culture is vastly different from suburban culture, is vastly different from "social elite culture." Understand? What's bullshit about that? It's quite a simple concept. Everyone on this planet has a very limited exposure to various "cultures." Black "culture" is a misnomer. Just as "white culture" is.

I'm not talking about ANY black person off the street, only the EDUCATED ones. The EDUCATED ones should teach about black history.

What the hell is this?

Now you're saying that inner city kids are by definition not educated?

I don't want some crack head who went to community college because he was too lazy to get a real high school diploma, preaching to me how hard he's got it, either. That's not to say that the people are not educated in the inner cities, it's just to a lesser degree.

Nice of you to make blanket statements. I'm not suggesting that crack-heads teach courses. I'm suggesting that an American inner city black (educated or not) has a completely different cultural outlook than a black that was born in a well-to-do family, or a black born and raise in Africa, etc.

That's like telling me I think it's ok for a guy who dropped out of school in the 4th grade and is hooked on drugs has the right to teach a math class all because his father is John Nash.

Where do you get this stuff from what I wrote?

All I'm telling you is that race is no QUALIFICATION for teaching. I'm precisely telling you that its legitimate qualifications such as education and field of study, ability to handle a class etc., that makes a good teacher.

What is "black culture?"

My point exactly.

No, really, answer the question. What is black culture?

Where are the courses in "white" culture?

Mostly every other day is white history day, you just can't call it that.

Lol...no I've heard it all.

The white and ethnic outlook on life and its values are absolutely different in almost every way. Whites don't want to be seen as doing any wrong doing, and the ethnics don't want to be seen as who's pointing the finger.

OMG.

So let me get this striagt:

1) Whites generally believe that they are without sin, and that they don't do and have not done anything wrong.
2) "Other ethnics" (whatever that is) just keep to themselves, and don't want to appear to be "pointing the finger" at whites?
3) "Blacks" are the truly brave ones, who have no problem pointing the finger at that which ails them (whites), and also recognize any time that they are wrong.

So, who is it that taught you this stuff? The best argument against white teachers, would be for you to answer me and tell you a white person taught it...

And one pose a situation which you apparently just completely haven't even thought about.

Are courses in black history or culture, limited to be taken by black students? I thought you said that blacks basically "know" the culture, experiences etc. Then why do blacks need a "course" in black culture at all? They're living it.

So that means, by your logic, that whites should be taking black culture (because blacks don't need such courses.) And of course, since whites "don't have pride" in black culture, they shouldn't have a teacher who has any pride in it. That would be teaching them from a point of view that they don't share.

So in reality, we should have KKK leadership teaching courses in black culture....

This thread is almost as maddening as trying to convince someone that the constitution is, er, constitutional.

 

[Silent_One]

This thread is almost as maddening as trying to convince someone that the constitution is, er, constitutional.

*Sigh*......
Do you ever get the feeling Joe that it's a waste of time? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's fun and all that arguing with Natoma, but they just keep coming out of the woodwork....

 

[Don't Ask]

Um, of course it's a big difference.

History is a set of facts based on historical action. Culture is "socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought. "

You can try and understand certain aspects of culture by studying history. They are related, but certainly different things.

And as I said, "black culture" is about as ambiguous as "white culture." There is significant cultural diveristy within racial groups.

Nothing is that universal. Black culture and history are pretty much fused together. They are different yet more of the same.

No, it does not. Certainly not black histtory. A black person might be more qualified to teach about "black culture", depending specifically on the individual, and his/her relationship to the specific culture being taught.

Ok, if you are admitting that anyone who teaches black history will be biased towards their own race, then of course the black teacher would be the better option. And if that means everyone is a racist then kill all black history teachers for god sakes. No one wants a racist teacher.

Was that black not allows to ride in the back of the bus?

Uh huh.

Their kids have also edured their own handfull of bullshit they have to put up with, surely.

And I'm sure there are also whites who who witnessed it, whites who were against it, etc.

Of course. It's besides the point. No one is saying all whites are racists, not here anyway. I could speak on my own behalf and say that most of the ones I met are typically semi-racist, though they really don't think they are. It's the way most of us were brought up. I was brought up that way actually, I just used my brain to get out of it. Being native american probably helped alot though.

Right, so the core of black culture is racism then? And you must be a victim of black racism to teach about it? Do these black teachers teach about reverse discrimination? Do they support quotas and other affirmative action efforts? Do they teach that "real blacks" support such things, and if you don't, you're an "uncle Tom?", and aren't part of the "real, black culture?"

You seem to think that all blacks are biased and prejudice.

I don't think all whites are, but some are, and those that are shouldn't be teaching black history.

Sigh. I have more in common with the Mafia then. I'll be damned if I have more right to teach a course in organized crime or Italian American history.

I thought you considered yourself white, or do you still?

Who said you don't have a right to be proud of anything?

You did, or at least you give off a steamy impression of it.

What you are saying is that someone who doesn't have a BIAS TOWARD BLACK culture, isn't as qualified to teach it as someone who does? Does someone who is proud of being a Nazi have more right to teach about Nazism? No...all that does is more or less guarnatee that one particular point of view is being taught.

Don't add more to what's there. I've already explained it to where it's worn out.

Oh my God...are you serious?

Yeah, I'm serious.

In this age where people are afraid to fire ANY minority, justified or not, due to law-suits, etc? I can guarantee you that minorities, women, older folks....are ALL MORE LIKELY to retain their jobs than the "typical white male."

Maybe in the public eye.

There is a papa johns up the street with a letterbox sign saying "2 large pizzas 8$".

I call up and ask about it, they tell me it's just a pick up line.

Says who?
And what is this different outlook on life? I never know that the color of one's skin is what defines a different outlook on life. I thought this was an individual pursuit

So you really think that everyone should have the same outlook on life?

Well so do I. Doesn't work out that easily.

And I'm not asking for a white racist teacher either.

And if you were to get one do you think he has more right to teach black history?

I can't believe I just read that. So, you're of that frame of mind, but you know that most blacks aren't? And now we need black teachers for black history, so they can convey the proper message that whites were and are the root of black's problems.

As far as teaching a class goes, I don't think that a black teacher would integrate some "conspiracy theory" against whites into the curriculum. Knowing something doesn't have to change the way you live your life or mold others, unless you let it. The black people I meet do have a certain biased perspective but only naturally, it's not something they just use to fuel a fire. Many just accept the way things are and move on with their lives.

Ah...yes. Emotion. A liberal's best friend. When facts and logic dont work, hit 'em with emotion.

Who says they won't use facts?

Who said they don't? And why is it that the "black leaders" of today don't seem to have much Pride in successful blacks like Powell, Thomas, Rice, etc? Don't THEY have a right to be proud?

The "black leaders" of today are usually some of the most racist people. Powell is hated because he "works for an evil white devil government" and blah blah... Hopefully none of them teach black history.

You do know that excessive pride is actually a bad thing, don't you? Again, Pride is not a prerequisite for teaching. All it does is more or less guarantee that what is taught, is taught with a certain bias.

As you yourself have demonstrated.

No, I don't believe it's the same racism that their ancestors endured. Not by a long shot. Of course there still is racism. There's also religious persecution, other ethnic persecution of ALL groups in one form or another.

Heh, Racism doesn't change through time, pal. Lynching people "back in the day" is Lynching people, wether it be a racist event or just because someone slept with someone's wife. It's the hate that gets it to that point. Of course today, it's much harder to run from the law.

There should come a point where blacks STOP defining their culture as that of the "persecuted." The sooner you (personally) do that, the sooner you can actually get on with your life.

It seems to me you can't seem to get the image of the "average urban slums brother man" out of your head.

Btw, who said I was black in the first place? I consider myself white, with a chameleonic year long tan.

Because "inner city" culture is vastly different from suburban culture, is vastly different from "social elite culture." Understand? What's bullshit about that? It's quite a simple concept. Everyone on this planet has a very limited exposure to various "cultures." Black "culture" is a misnomer. Just as "white culture" is.

You think everything is all perfectly rounded and squared out don't you? You can't classify something you know nothing about.

What the hell is this?

Now you're saying that inner city kids are by definition not educated?

Nice try, but you left the rest of it out. I'm not even going to quote it.

Nice of you to make blanket statements. I'm not suggesting that crack-heads teach courses. I'm suggesting that an American inner city black (educated or not) has a completely different cultural outlook than a black that was born in a well-to-do family, or a black born and raise in Africa, etc.

So now you think people do have different outlooks? Yeah they do, but the people in africa have built their own countries and governments. They do not need to worry about the problems we have over here in the US of A.

All I'm telling you is that race is no QUALIFICATION for teaching. I'm precisely telling you that its legitimate qualifications such as education and field of study, ability to handle a class etc., that makes a good teacher.

For a black man that thinks everything is ok in the world, it wouldn't be. There is not many a time you will find that, I can guarantee. I don't know why it's so hard to see, but living beneath dark skin is whole of a different universe.

No, really, answer the question. What is black culture?

Something neither you nor I have any sense to appropriately define. Blacks do a better job. Period.

Lol...noW I've heard it all.

Yeah, repetition doesn't always sink in.

The white and ethnic outlook on life and its values are absolutely different in almost every way. Whites don't want to be seen as doing any wrong doing, and the ethnics don't want to be seen as who's pointing the finger.

So let me get this striagt:

I'd like to see you try, I really would.

1) Whites generally believe that they are without sin, and that they don't do and have not done anything wrong.

Nope. None of them just want to be looked at as being a racist, even some of the ones that are.

2) "Other ethnics" (whatever that is) just keep to themselves, and don't want to appear to be "pointing the finger" at whites?

This goes for blacks too. I'm sure they are tired of being accused of being racist because they have a different outlook on life, too.

3) "Blacks" are the truly brave ones, who have no problem pointing the finger at that which ails them (whites), and also recognize any time that they are wrong.

Hmm seems you have some personal issues to deal with.

And one pose a situation which you apparently just completely haven't even thought about.

You can't use your IQ or your little social structured mind games to win an argument about something you have not even begun to understand. You don't know what it is like to be black, asian, or indian. You are a white person with only a white understanding of the world.

Are courses in black history or culture, limited to be taken by black students? I thought you said that blacks basically "know" the culture, experiences etc. Then why do blacks need a "course" in black culture at all? They're living it.

Blacks need to be taught about their history as well.

So that means, by your logic, that whites should be taking black culture (because blacks don't need such courses.)

If it would help them to understand it better, maybe.

And of course, since whites "don't have pride" in black culture, they shouldn't have a teacher who has any pride in it. That would be teaching them from a point of view that they don't share.

I have never said that. That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

So in reality, we should have KKK leadership teaching courses in black culture....

And you got that from your ass I assume?

This thread is almost as maddening as trying to convince someone that the constitution is, er, constitutional.

America blows, deal with it. It just blows less than most other countries.

 

[DemoCoder]

DontAsk, you really don't have a clue as to what inner city black culture really is do you?

Teaching is about the message, not the messenger. Teachers have a curriculum provided for them by the school, from textbooks that they did not write, and their job is to explain this curriculum to the students as best they can.

In an era where we don't have enough qualified teachers, we need all we can. The idea that only a biased, angry black can teach slavery wrong on two counts. First, he will still have to teach the same curriculum that whites do. Second, he is if anything, too passionate about the subject, and unable to be objective. What more would you expect him to say that isn't mentioned in the history books already? (slavery, middle passage, plantations, lynchings, share cropping, jim crow, civil rights movement, etc etc)

Students need teachers, not preachers, and it sounds like you want a Farakhan up there.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Nothing is that universal. Black culture and history are pretty much fused together. They are different yet more of the same.

Um, OK.

Ok, if you are admitting that anyone who teaches black history will be biased towards their own race...

No, I'd admitting no such thing. YOU are the one saying that blacks would have some type of "pride", which is beneficial. YOU are the one saying that this bias is beneficial.

And if that means everyone is a racist then kill all black history teachers for god sakes. No one wants a racist teacher.

I have no idea where you get this stuff fronm...

Their kids have also edured their own handfull of bullshit they have to put up with, surely.

And so have I, and so will my kids. We've all got to put up with a bunch of bullshit. That's life.

I just don't define my life by the bullshit I put up with. I guess that's the difference between me and you.

You seem to think that all blacks are biased and prejudice.

No..the point is YOU are portraying them that way.

I don't think all whites are, but some are, and those that are shouldn't be teaching black history.

And who disagrees with that? NO ONE who is racist should be teaching about racial culture.

I thought you considered yourself white, or do you still?

Yes, I consider myself white. It's a fact that I am white. White is my skin color, not my culture or heritage. My heritage is mostly Italian. But culturally I'm more like a typical middle-class American suburbanite.

Who said you don't have a right to be proud of anything?

You did, or at least you give off a steamy impression of it.

Please, indicate the quote to me where I gave this impression...

In this age where people are afraid to fire ANY minority, justified or not, due to law-suits, etc? I can guarantee you that minorities, women, older folks....are ALL MORE LIKELY to retain their jobs than the "typical white male."

Maybe in the public eye.

Try the private sector. Go on and ask my wife, who's in HR for a major pharmaceutical firm, just how friggin' paranoid they are about firing anyone who's not a white male.

There is a papa johns up the street with a letterbox sign saying "2 large pizzas 8$".

I call up and ask about it, they tell me it's just a pick up line.

WTF is that supposed to mean?

So you really think that everyone should have the same outlook on life?

My, I thought that's what blacks have been fighting for all this time. Equal opportunity.

And I'm not asking for a white racist teacher either.

And if you were to get one do you think he has more right to teach black history?

It is utterly impossible to have a conversation with you. How many times must I repeat that no racist...white or black...has any "right" to teach a class on racial culture IMO.

As far as teaching a class goes, I don't think that a black teacher would integrate some "conspiracy theory" against whites into the curriculum.

And I don't think a white teacher would integrate some conspiracy theory against blacks. "So there."

You know...I'm just going to stop here. This is such a waste of my time...

 

[Natoma]

This thread is almost as maddening as trying to convince someone that the constitution is, er, constitutional.

Imagine how maddening it must have been to argue with you about the definition of natural.

Oh and btw, definition of unconstitutional:

"Not in accord with the principles set forth in the constitution of a nation or state"

Therefore an amendment to the constitution can be construed as unconstitutional.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Imagine how maddening it must have been to argue with you about the definition of natural.

I can imagine...you were on the other end of it...

Oh and btw, definition of unconstitutional:

"Not in accord with the principles set forth in the constitution of a nation or state"

Unfortunately for you, an amendment DEFINES the principles set forth in the constitution, and therefore can't be unconstitutional.

 

[Natoma]

Imagine how maddening it must have been to argue with you about the definition of natural.

I can imagine...you were on the other end of it...

whatever.

Oh and btw, definition of unconstitutional:

"Not in accord with the principles set forth in the constitution of a nation or state"

Unfortunately for you, an amendment DEFINES the principles set forth in the constitution, and therefore can't be unconstitutional.

Even before it reaches the constitution? It most certainly can be unconstitutional. And even when it gets into the constitution, it can still violate the principles of that constitution, despite being part of it. Anti-miscegenation for example was anti-"everything the US stands for," and yet it was US law and defined as such. Jim Crow and Slavery both violated the spirit and the principles of what America is, yet they both were lawful at one time in this country and fully codified in our legal system.

Btw, I don't want to get your discussion in here, whatever it is, off track, so I'll quote this into the other thread and continue there.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Even before it reaches the constitution? It most certainly can be unconstitutional.

Who said anything about "before reaching" the constitution?

Once an amendment is ratified, it is by definition constitutional.

And even when it gets into the constitution, it can still violate the principles of that constitution, despite being part of it.

Wrong. At worst, it can "violate the principles" of the "pre-amended constitution."

Anti-miscegenation for example was anti-"everything the US stands for,"

Was there an anti-miscegnation amendment? No. So what's the relevance?

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

Joe DeFuria and Natoma,

Maybe you two could see if they can open up a new forum. Call it the "Splitting Hair" forum. =P

Dr. Ffreeze


/tosses and turns in bed

/mumbles in his sleep, "Please, please no more natural. No more constitutionality"

/wake of from a nightmare in a cold sweet


=P

 

[Natoma]

He started it.

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

Don't Ask,

Quote:
In this age where people are afraid to fire ANY minority, justified or not, due to law-suits, etc? I can guarantee you that minorities, women, older folks....are ALL MORE LIKELY to retain their jobs than the "typical white male."


Maybe in the public eye.

There is a papa johns up the street with a letterbox sign saying "2 large pizzas 8$".

I call up and ask about it, they tell me it's just a pick up line.

It sounds like you are saying that someone was racist against you when you called about that special. So, on the phone someone was racist to you? How could they know what race you were from the phone?

Being native american probably helped alot though.

Btw, who said I was black in the first place? I consider myself white, with a chameleonic year long tan.

So, it looks like you consider yourself sometimes white, and sometimes native american, and yet you know someone that didn't tell you about the $8 special at Papa Johns knew your race from a phone conversation, and the reason he did so was because of your race?

Did I get that all wrong? I hope I did, but that is what it sounds like.

Ok, if you are admitting that anyone who teaches black history will be biased towards their own race, then of course the black teacher would be the better option.

Question about that. How much of a better option are you saying, just a little bit or much much better? Are you saying that we should have teachers of every nationality to teach their particular part history to students? When the Great Wall of China is covered, we need to get a Chinese teacher? Or are you just saying that they would understand it a bit better because it is personal and there they might teach it a bit better?

You seem to think that all blacks are biased and prejudice.

I don't think all whites are, but some are, and those that are shouldn't be teaching black history.

I agree with that 100%. I would also say, "I don't think all blacks are (biased and prejudice), but some are, and those that are shouldn't be teaching black history.

Quote:
And I'm not asking for a white racist teacher either.


And if you were to get one do you think he has more right to teach black history?

I don't quite get this. I don't want ANY racist teacher teaching about black history, and I don't think Joe does either. Matter of fact, I don't want ANY racist teacher period. =)

Quote:
Neither does the black person.


Sure he does, slavery/Racism would be a key figure in teaching black history. It's filled with it. I've had a white history teacher teach black history, 4 of them actually. It always seems they can't help themselves find some excuse for why their parents and grandparents were so against anything different. I understand that's not all whites, but what's the point in risking it? Besides, most of them are damn good at hiding it.

Again, I am having a hard time here Don't Ask. You have had personal experience with White teachers teaching your black history, 4 in fact. Ok, much of our perceptions are based on personal experiences and projected as stereotypes (not necessarily a bad thing, stereotypes. They help you assimilate HUGE volumes of data, you just rely on stereotypes when talking about individual pieces of that data). You said that all 4 teachers gave excuses about their relatives. Ok, I can understand and see that. But what confuses me is that you said they don't just hide it, but are damn good at hiding it. Do you think that maybe you could be just hypersensitive, and are seeing what you want to see?

You also mentioned, what is the point in risking it? Well, if they were racist, then 4 racist White men that were bad teachers should not be able to extrapolate out to the entire population of White men. That is a very bad use of stereotyping.

Quote:
Who said you don't have a right to be proud of anything?


You did, or at least you give off a steamy impression of it.

Funny, I not proud of being White. I just am White. I am proud of one thing though, and that leads up to the next quote....

Quote:
This thread is almost as maddening as trying to convince someone that the constitution is, er, constitutional.


America blows, deal with it. It just blows less than most other countries.

I am proud to be an American (as I would imagine most others are proud of their nationality). America most certainly does _not_ blow for me! America is the land of opportunity where if you work hard, educate yourself with marketable skills, you can do anything you want.

Dr. Ffreeze

 

[Don't Ask]

It sounds like you are saying that someone was racist against you when you called about that special. So, on the phone someone was racist to you? How could they know what race you were from the phone?

Apparently no one got what I meant by that and I don't really care.

Being native american probably helped alot though.

So, it looks like you consider yourself sometimes white, and sometimes native american, and yet you know someone that didn't tell you about the $8 special at Papa Johns knew your race from a phone conversation, and the reason he did so was because of your race?

Yeah, I do. Right now? I'm a pasty white guy. People's attitudes towards me show it.

I didn't think anyone got the papa johns thing. I'm tired of explaining everything so I'm going to let that one go, so I don't sound even more like a broken record.

Did I get that all wrong? I hope I did, but that is what it sounds like.

Ok.

Ok, if you are admitting that anyone who teaches black history will be biased towards their own race, then of course the black teacher would be the better option.

Question about that. How much of a better option are you saying, just a little bit or much much better? Are you saying that we should have teachers of every nationality to teach their particular part history to students? When the Great Wall of China is covered, we need to get a Chinese teacher? Or are you just saying that they would understand it a bit better because it is personal and there they might teach it a bit better?

I'm not saying we should have racist teachers. The Great Wall of China is just rocks and stone. Teaching about chinese history/culture which will of course cover the great wall, is a different thing.

You seem to think that all blacks are biased and prejudice.

I don't think all whites are, but some are, and those that are shouldn't be teaching black history.

I agree with that 100%. I would also say, "I don't think all blacks are (biased and prejudice), but some are, and those that are shouldn't be teaching black history.

Shouldn't be but you don't always know who is who.

Quote:
And I'm not asking for a white racist teacher either.


And if you were to get one do you think he has more right to teach black history?

I don't quite get this. I don't want ANY racist teacher teaching about black history, and I don't think Joe does either. Matter of fact, I don't want ANY racist teacher period.

No one wants a racist teacher. See below.

Quote:
Neither does the black person.


Sure he does, slavery/Racism would be a key figure in teaching black history. It's filled with it. I've had a white history teacher teach black history, 4 of them actually. It always seems they can't help themselves find some excuse for why their parents and grandparents were so against anything different. I understand that's not all whites, but what's the point in risking it? Besides, most of them are damn good at hiding it.

Again, I am having a hard time here Don't Ask. You have had personal experience with White teachers teaching your black history, 4 in fact. Ok, much of our perceptions are based on personal experiences and projected as stereotypes (not necessarily a bad thing, stereotypes. They help you assimilate HUGE volumes of data, you just rely on stereotypes when talking about individual pieces of that data). You said that all 4 teachers gave excuses about their relatives. Ok, I can understand and see that. But what confuses me is that you said they don't just hide it, but are damn good at hiding it. Do you think that maybe you could be just hypersensitive, and are seeing what you want to see?

See below.

You also mentioned, what is the point in risking it? Well, if they were racist, then 4 racist White men that were bad teachers should not be able to extrapolate out to the entire population of White men. That is a very bad use of stereotyping.

No, but the fact is they are out there and you can't always tell who is who. Why have a racist teacher that HATES BLACKS teach BLACK history and why would a black teacher twist around facts when they really don't have much to hide?

Quote:
Who said you don't have a right to be proud of anything?


You did, or at least you give off a steamy impression of it.

Funny, I not proud of being White. I just am White. I am proud of one thing though, and that leads up to the next quote....

Taken out of context.

Quote:
This thread is almost as maddening as trying to convince someone that the constitution is, er, constitutional.


America blows, deal with it. It just blows less than most other countries.

I am proud to be an American (as I would imagine most others are proud of their nationality). America most certainly does _not_ blow for me! America is the land of opportunity where if you work hard, educate yourself with marketable skills, you can do anything you want.

Dr. Ffreeze

I'm proud to be in a free country, it's just a shame it has to be the USA.

 

[Don't Ask]

About this pride thing, joe, you asked where have you stated that pride is a bad thing?

In pretty much all of your posts. You think that pride is biased? So if your parents were to be proud of you for making 10 million a year, then they are wrong? No, racism is biased. Not Pride.

Pride doesn't mean that you flip off everyone else around you. For instance, I'm very PROUD of myself for learning to play the guitar as well as I have. Now am I saying that I can play it better than everyone else? NO, because that's being biased. I know I'm not the best but yet I am still proud that I have come as far as I've come, given the fact that I'm autistic.

Just because a black man is proud of who he is and where he comes from or whatever, does that necessarily mean he thinks "Well the hell with all white people, they don't matter to me"? Yes, that's biased and No, not everyone who are proud of who they are think that way.

You know...I'm just going to stop here. This is such a waste of my time...

Then go do something better with it.

You need to learn to let things go and most of all stop blaming everyone else for using a crutch to sympathize with their problems. Maybe, just maybe, you don't have an absolute answer for everything.

Before you start thinking "oh so you're retarded, that explains alot", keep in mind my IQ is in the above average range, 125. Sure, that's probably low compared to the rest of you, but it is respectable. I don't know exactly the % of how many autistic people are/are not disabled, but I do know I am in the "are not" range. Yes, I do have serious social issues that create great difficulty explaining myself correctly and to the fullest extent, but I do know what I'm talking about.