Where is CELL ?

[nelg]

After all the talk about the potential for Sony to use CELL in their other consumer devices, where is it. I would have thought that they would have used it in there latest A/V receivers for HD up-conversion or their newest HDTVs. Is Sony using it anywhere?

 

[Skrying]

After all the talk about the potential for Sony to use CELL in their other consumer devices, where is it. I would have thought that they would have used it in there latest A/V receivers for HD up-conversion or their newest HDTVs. Is Sony using it anywhere?

The Playstation 3 is where its being used at for Sony at least. Supplies I do not believe are great enough yet to place them in *everything* but I would expect at some point it will happen.

 

[AlNom]

is it possible they're just stockpiling the chips that aren't good enough (<=6 working SPEs)? Perhaps they will announce something at CES...

 

[nelg]

The Playstation 3 is where its being used at for Sony at least. Supplies I do not believe are great enough yet to place them in *everything* but I would expect at some point it will happen.

I seriously doubt they are supply constrained.

 

[Skrying]

I seriously doubt they are supply constrained.

Weird, I wonder why none of the Cell project members besides Sony are using them in any meaningful volume. While the Cell CPUs that Sony is using are the high end versions and of course much lower level chips would be used in consumer products you have to wonder why they're not being used.

I guess the only other reasonable answer would be that Cell is nowhere near what it was suppose to be.

 

[3dilettante]

I wonder if the current CELL design is just too overdesigned for other markets.

It's supposed to be applicable to a wide range of design targets, but they'd probably have to do more than just disable a few SPEs or downclock the chip to make it worthwhile for low-power devices.

It's also a matter of software tools, which aren't yet completely mature. They might be able to get away with weird issues with the PS3, since games and firmware can be updated, but other platforms need more assurance if there is limited opportunity to patch.

Considering the expense of production and effort it takes to get some applications optimized, it might not be cost-effective yet to be worthwhile.

There's a thread in the console thread discussing how up to 5 SPEs are devoted to decoding, which might be too many for a stripped-down version to work well, so maybe it's just not a good fit as-is.

 

[Bobbler]

I would think it has more to do with the die size and heat it puts out currently than anything else... No doubt there are a lot of reasons, but this one wasn't mentioned yet.

Who puts a 240mm2 235m transistor chip in a TV or reciever?

I wouldn't expect it to be used in any consumer electronics until it's gotten at least a die shrink, probably 2. It may not be the hottest chip around heat wise, but it's still more than I imagine you'd want in something like a reciever or a TV.

Also, I'd imagine they'd rather use the mini cell design (which apparently hasn't come to fruition yet? 1ppe/2-4spe cells or whatever).

Seeing how well Cell copes with blu-ray playback, it does kind of make me excited to see it actually being used in other consumer electronics -- but I wouldn't expect it to be until it's costs are substantially lower and heat output doesn't require an elaborate heatsink design.

 

[nelg]

I would think it has more to do with the die size and heat it puts out currently than anything else... No doubt there are a lot of reasons, but this one wasn't mentioned yet.

When you mention die size, is that for physical reasons or economic? Furthermore wouldn't the use of a non-mini CELL (IE 7-8 SPE's) allow for a reduction in clock speed negating the power and thermal issues you mentioned?

 

[3dilettante]

When you mention die size, is that for physical reasons or economic? Furthermore wouldn't the use of a non-mini CELL (IE 7-8 SPE's) allow for a reduction in clock speed negating the power and thermal issues you mentioned?

I don't think the die size is too large for it to fit in a small space, but it has a very real impact on economics.

The number of chips that can be produced is impacted by die size. Large dies have higher fault rates and can't be produced in the same volume. The cost of manufacturing chips is pretty much a fixed (and very high) cost per wafer. If the volume of chips is low, the cost per chip is higher.

I'm not sure if a full-sized CELL can be manufactured in the volumes the embedded markets outside of the console world would like.

It's also unlikely a CELL in its current design form can match more custom chips when it comes to power consumption. It just has a lot of transistors, which will burn some power regardless of what they are doing.

A lot of embedded processors or custom chips would give reasonable performance in media devices at power levels far below what even a down-clocked CELL could offer.

Looking at how CELL can do real-time decoding using 5 SPEs, we see another problem. It can do better than a standard chip, but only if you use the expensive full-sized version. A mini-Cell might not have enough to be competitive.

They would be smaller, cheaper, and in large volume. I'm not convinced CELL's flexibility can be fully exploited in a lot of those markets it's supposedly targeted at, at least not enough to make the downsides worthwhile.

 

[SPM]

It was Toshiba, not Sony who was going to use Cell in all their high end TVs. Maybe Sony will also do so later.

I think this TV has Cell built in although Toshiba has done a very good job hiding it's complexity from the user.

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/televisions/product.asp?model=47lz196

TV Guide On Screenâ„¢ Interactive Program Guide
Benefit: This Interactive Program Guide provides an easy to read listing of the television programs available to view or record. TV Guide On Screenâ„¢ Interactive Program Guide provides: an 8-day program listing, flexibility of recording directly to DVD or the HDD, the ability to perform keyword searches for locating favorite programs and includes the G-Link IR Blaster for controlling cable boxes. When recording television programs, the name of the show, along with the channel and date, are automatically captured.

THINCmailâ„¢
Definition: Allows access, through your existing home network, to your library of JPEG and MP3 files, even you home Email using only the TV’s remote control, even listen to MP3s through your connected home theater!

THINC Ethernet Port
Definition: Allows access, through your existing home network vi a built in RJ-45 connector, to your library of JPEG and MP3 files using only the TV’s remote control, even through your connected home theater!

HD Window POP (picture on picture) is a versatile and convenient feature for the age of HD as it lets the user watch two programs simultaneously, even HD sources. This advanced system can accept 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i signals, and can even display 4:3 and 16:9 images on the screen at the same time.

It certainly has some kind of CPU in it, probably Cell.

Note the Super Companion chip for the Cell. Some of the features described seen to be in this model http://www.hotchips.org/archives/hc17/2_Mon/HC17.S1/HC17.S1T3.pdf

 

[Frank]

Well, there definitely seems to be a problem in getting enough functional Cell processors manufactured, isn't there?

 

[Rangers]

I wonder if the current CELL design is just too overdesigned for other markets.

It's supposed to be applicable to a wide range of design targets, but they'd probably have to do more than just disable a few SPEs or downclock the chip to make it worthwhile for low-power devices.

It's also a matter of software tools, which aren't yet completely mature. They might be able to get away with weird issues with the PS3, since games and firmware can be updated, but other platforms need more assurance if there is limited opportunity to patch.

Considering the expense of production and effort it takes to get some applications optimized, it might not be cost-effective yet to be worthwhile.

There's a thread in the console thread discussing how up to 5 SPEs are devoted to decoding, which might be too many for a stripped-down version to work well, so maybe it's just not a good fit as-is.

Yep. You would do better to stick some custom cheapo chip in TV's...

I could be wrong, but that' s my take. Even if it's just a few bucks cheaper, you know how that is, a few bucks is huge on margins.

Also that would make me wonder..what is cell designed for. If it started showing up in TV's everywhere, it would make me think it was designed as a decoder chip and not for games..