What do you prefer for games: Framerates and Resolutions? [2020]

What would you prioritize?

  • Total voters
    42
I'm not going to say PS5 is better than PC or XBSX, but you're saying this works on current-gen, and I'm saying not. ;) They won't be fast enough to stream unlimited detail assets, or even crude assets. I doubt HDD could provide any usable streaming performance and the engine will adapt by caching far smaller datasets to RAM in the case of hardware that doesn't have a streaming solution.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
I'm not going to say PS5 is better than PC or XBSX, but you're saying this works on current-gen, and I'm saying not. ;) They won't be fast enough to stream unlimited detail assets, or even crude assets. I doubt HDD could provide any usable streaming performance and the engine will adapt by caching far smaller datasets to RAM in the case of hardware that doesn't have a streaming solution.
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Oh do you mean, could you use a slower 40Mb/s drive and have 8K textures etc and meshes, and somehow render less fidelity only because of compute differences?
No.

But could you use a tool to down-convert those 8K texture and meshes into 2K or 1K meshes and then use the same pipeline and will it run then?
I say yes. That is what Epic is saying at least.
 
iroboto said:
But could you use a tool to down-convert those 8K texture and meshes into 2K or 1K meshes and then use the same pipeline and will it run then?
I say yes. That is what Epic is saying at least.
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Except I don't think you can because of the IO limit. If the demo were only using a tiny fraction of PS5 capabilities, at 500 MBs, that's 10x peak rate of the console HDDs, and ignores seek times which will absolutely cripple random-access data-set reads.

Trials had perfect virtual texturing from HDD. Would it have worked from floppy disc? That's the kind of performance delta we're looking at here between the HDDs and SSDs.

And I'm thinking that's the core of the tech, reading small subsets of the models from storage, and the seek times on HDD will stop that from being usable. As a result, you won't be able to use streamable assets of unlimited size. The engine will scale down so games can use it, but they'll disable features the HW can't use and use fall-back solutions.

But I also doubt the rest of it runs at a decent speed on current gen either. The lighting is traced against volumes as we've described in the "do consoles need RT HW?" discussion; it's something doable in software now, and for years, but as came up in that discussion it's plain not fast enough this gen. Then we have the software rasterisation of the triangles - "On PlayStation 5 we use primitive shaders for that path which is considerably faster than using the old pipeline we had before with vertex shaders." So not only are the TFs lower, the hardware is proportionally slower as well. How fast will PS5 be able to process all this data?
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Except I don't think you can because of the IO limit. If the demo were only using a tiny fraction of PS5 capabilities, at 500 MBs, that's 10x peak rate of the console HDDs, and ignores seek times which will absolutely cripple random-access data-set reads.

Trials had perfect virtual texturing from HDD. Would it have worked from floppy disc? That's the kind of performance delta we're looking at here between the HDDs and SSDs.

And I'm thinking that's the core of the tech, reading small subsets of the models from storage, and the seek times on HDD will stop that from being usable. As a result, you won't be able to use streamable assets of unlimited size. The engine will scale down so games can use it, but they'll disable features the HW can't use and use fall-back solutions.

But I also doubt the rest of it runs at a decent speed on current gen either. The lighting is traced against volumes as we've described in the "do consoles need RT HW?" discussion; it's something doable in software now, and for years, but as came up in that discussion it's plain not fast enough this gen. Then we have the software rasterisation of the triangles - "On PlayStation 5 we use primitive shaders for that path which is considerably faster than using the old pipeline we had before with vertex shaders." So not only are the TFs lower, the hardware is proportionally slower as well. How fast will PS5 be able to process all this data?
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We use virtual texturing today with all of our games. We have to re-copy the data for re-use though if we want higher bandwidth from teh drives. This is my understanding, the SSDs you won't need to do that because of seek and transfer times. I don't know how it will work, but I"m convinced it will work. Unless you think Fortnite on XBO and PS4 will stop working when they move to UE5, I think it'll run fine.

As for the software raster, it's going to be considerably faster than vertex shaders which is the FF pipeline. That will be the case whether you use mesh or compute shaders to do this. The FF pipeline is completely unable to generate significant performance at 1 triangle per pixel and deals with subpixel triangles. I have posted about this, in another post explaining why the FF pipeline will be murdered and even stall out. So I think there is enough power on this current generation of machines. Saturation should be higher since we're dealing with entirely the compute pipeline. The DX11 render path is gone, everything is done with executeIndirects so that the GPU is submitting the work back onto itself continually. This will vastly increase the saturation issue with have on GCN.
 
iroboto said:
We use virtual texturing today with all of our games. We have to re-copy the data for re-use though if we want higher bandwidth from teh drives. This is my understanding, the SSDs you won't need to do that because of seek and transfer times. I don't know how it will work, but I"m convinced it will work. Unless you think Fortnite on XBO and PS4 will stop working when they move to UE5, I think it'll run fine.
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The engine will scale. Instead of streaming 33 million polygon statues, the game will maybe preload a 300k poly statue and run the streaming tech from RAM. GI will be disabled or vastly pared back. Current gen will not run UE5 games as per this demo (it's questionable if next-gen will even run games like this with the overhead of a whole game to contend with!). The road to virtualised geometry and good realtime GI (scenery only?) as evidenced here is a long one that's been waiting on faster enough storage for the virtualised geometry and fast enough compute for the volume-traced lighting. Without those, this tech can't exist in a real-time format.
 
Sweeney says the PS5 is a “remarkably balanced device.”

“It has an immense amount of GPU power, but also multi-order bandwidth increase in storage management. That’s going to be absolutely critical,” he says. “It’s one thing to render everything that can fit in memory,” he adds, but a much more impressive feat to render a world that “might be tens of gigabytes in size” almost instantaneously, as Sony’s new console and its M.2 solid-state drive are promising.

“We’ve been working super close with Sony for quite a long time on storage,” he says. “The storage architecture on the PS5 is far ahead of anything you can buy on anything on PC for any amount of money right now. It’s going to help drive future PCs.

Sweeney says the two companies have been working closely together during the development of UE5 and the PS5, ensuring that Epic’s game development tool sets for developers creating next-gen titles is optimized for the hardware that software will ultimately run on
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https://www.theverge.com/21256299/e...-ps5-ssd-impressive-pc-gaming-future-next-gen
So yeah I doubt Epic wouldn't give Sony a heads up if they think UE5's Nanite is only using a fraction of PS5's SSD power, if a much slower SSD is ample for the demo then why promote the hell out of PS5's SSD?
Another interesting point
The new drive, which Sony claims is faster than any on-market device available right now, won’t just make load times almost nonexistent, but will also enable developers to access the data their games are composed of with unprecedented speed. The result is larger game worlds loading much faster than ever before, which could result in drastic changes to how developers approach everything from balancing visual quality and performance to level design
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Not saying Iroboto is wrong but I don't know, somehow I feel like there's much more to it. We just need to see numbers from a high end PC or XSX.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
The engine will scale. Instead of streaming 33 million polygon statues, the game will maybe preload a 300k poly statue and run the streaming tech from RAM. GI will be disabled or vastly pared back. Current gen will not run UE5 games as per this demo (it's questionable if next-gen will even run games like this with the overhead of a whole game to contend with!). The road to virtualised geometry and good realtime GI (scenery only?) as evidenced here is a long one that's been waiting on faster enough storage for the virtualised geometry and fast enough compute for the volume-traced lighting. Without those, this tech can't exist in a real-time format.
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Yup. Agreed. More or less I think this is what will happen. The engine will scale.
 
ultragpu said:
https://www.theverge.com/21256299/e...-ps5-ssd-impressive-pc-gaming-future-next-gen
So yeah I doubt Epic wouldn't give Sony a heads up if they think UE5's Nanite is only using a fraction of PS5's SSD power, if a much slower SSD is ample for the demo then why promote the hell out of PS5's SSD?
Another interesting point

Not saying Iroboto is wrong but I don't know, somehow I feel like there's much more to it. We just need to see numbers from a high end PC or XSX.
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Not to be an asshole, or at least not trying to, but my simplistic answer is just: marketing.
You always want people talking about your best foot forward. PS5 made the marketing point about how their SSD can't even be matched on PC. That's teh appeal.

Nvidia makes their talks only about Ray Tracing and DLSS, because no one else has it.

Xbox made their points about 4K and TF power when they have that over Sony.

So, yea, Sony is just paying Epic to make commentary on things that are their best foot forward.

Nothing wrong with that. Their marketing campaign has been very successful, such that people thought there would be sufficient bandwidth to hold things in SSD and bypass system memory.

MS has had access to UE5 for some time. They showcased HellBlade 2 on it. People determined it was a CGI render, no possible way it could be real time. But now after UE5 tech is revealed and HB2 is running on it, they now know what's up. Everyone is just doing their best to sell their product. No harm being done here.

You're still going to get great graphics on PS5, people are still going to be very happy with their product.
 
ultragpu said:
https://www.theverge.com/21256299/e...-ps5-ssd-impressive-pc-gaming-future-next-gen
So yeah I doubt Epic wouldn't give Sony a heads up if they think UE5's Nanite is only using a fraction of PS5's SSD power, if a much slower SSD is ample for the demo then why promote the hell out of PS5's SSD?
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Because it makes it sound like PS5's SSD is the difference maker, even when it's not. It's entirely in Sony's interests to misrepresent the power of their SSD (if that's what happened). However, I don't really think that the case. I reckon Sweeney called it 'god-like' from his own impressions, which is fair because Sony went all-in on the SSD and we all know it's god-like! We can see MS's idea about BCPack might fall by the wayside in engines that aren't using textures conventionally, similar to how 360 was great for forward renderers but started to struggle when engines moved more towards deferred rendering. You can never really tell at the start of a generation where things are going to go by the end.
 
iroboto said:
It's confirmed UE5 as per Phil.
Given how it's cut up and edited, it can't be realtime.
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You are reading way too much into this tweet IMO. What we saw 5 months ago was pre-rendered in engine cinematic in UE4. Now, will Ninja Theory switch to UE5? Probably, depending on when the game is expected to release. Also moving to UE5 doesn't automatically mean that the devs have to or can use Nanite.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1205311442557243392

#UE4
 
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It'll be UE5 when released. I don't actually expect it for a while, I've always been anticipating a 2023 release.
 
Well you can't exactly tweet about something that hasn't been publicly disclosed, and since UE4 is forward compatible with UE5 by Epic's statements, it seems like UE5 could just be patched up UE4 with Lumen and Nanite, but UE4.5 doesn't have the same marketing flair as UE5.
 
BRiT said:
Well you can't exactly tweet about something that hasn't been publicly disclosed, and since UE4 is forward compatible with UE5 by Epic's statements, it seems like UE5 could just be patched up UE4 with Lumen and Nanite, but UE4.5 doesn't have the same marketing flair as UE5.
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Yea, I sort of just looked at that date now and said, hmm... can't believe that was 6 months ago-ish. 3-4 years from that date I suspect the game will be done. I don't think Epic was ready to announce UE5 even if it was some midway point or something. I recall some features being backported as well to UE4 like Lumens IIRC. So that may actually make sense that it's technically doable in UE4. But I think looking to save costs, they will switch to UE5 when it's ready.
 
BRiT said:
Well you can't exactly tweet about something that hasn't been publicly disclosed, and since UE4 is forward compatible with UE5 by Epic's statements, it seems like UE5 could just be patched up UE4 with Lumen and Nanite, but UE4.5 doesn't have the same marketing flair as UE5.
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Sure but both Nanite & Lumen have to be taken into account from the very start of development not 2 years down the road. Migrating from UE4 & UE5 is the easy part. Building your whole workflow & pipeline to use Nanite & Lumen won't happen mid-development though.
 
nvm, no features are back ported.
Unreal Engine 4.25 already supports next-generation console platforms from Sony and Microsoft, and Epic is working closely with console manufacturers and dozens of game developers and publishers using Unreal Engine 4 to build next-gen games.

Unreal Engine 5 will be available in preview in early 2021, and in full release late in 2021, supporting next-generation consoles, current-generation consoles, PC, Mac, iOS, and Android.

We’re designing for forward compatibility, so you can get started with next-gen development now in UE4 and move your projects to UE5 when ready.

We will release Fortnite, built with UE4, on next-gen consoles at launch and, in keeping with our commitment to prove out industry-leading features through internal production, migrate the game to UE5 in mid-2021.

UE4.25 designed for next gen. And forward compatibility to shift your project over.
 
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