What about the new Nokia N-Gage?

[nondescript]

Call me shallow, but I would never by the N-gage just out of pure aesthetics. A good game player is not a good looking cell phone. Unless you use a Bluetooth or corded mic, using the cell phone would require pressing the screen to your face. Also, pretend you're holding a business card in one hand - how would you dial a number? Dial sideways?

Personally, I think N-gage is headed in the wrong direction - cell phones are only becoming smaller, with more battery life. In many parts of the world, particularly in youth culture, cell phones are almost accessory items. Personally, I would rather have a Panasonic GD95 than the N-gage. Sure, there are games for cell phones, but I think a game player more closely resembles a PDA in size, processing power, battery life, etc. Combining a game player with a PDA makes more sense than a cell phone.

 

[Tagrineth]

The one thing that I could see N-Gage being good for is vertical shooters like Ikaruga and Strikers:1945...

 

[Grall]

you can't say "it wasn't build for those tasks"

Sure I can. GBA *CAN'T* be transformed into a cellphone because it lacks the neccessary hardware. Even if you were to stick a transciever + antenna into a cart, the main CPU could never keep up. You need a dedicated DSP or ASIC to en/decode the modulated GSM signal! That's what I mean by wasn't built for it.

apparently the audience targetted with ngage is not the same as GBA's

...And apparantly, Nokia hasn't the faintest idea who those people are and neither do anybody else! It seems they're making a gaming cell phone and put it out on the market in the vain hope people will suddenly start to buy them! How will you get new games into it, does it have a cartridge slot, or do you have to download them? GPRS is horrendously slow and HORRENDOUSLY expensive, I have to pay about $0.15 per KILOBYTE of data transferred, a game would realistically be a at least a couple hundred kbytes, nobody could afford that! Well, OK, Bill Gates and a few others could, but I'd go bankrupt trying to buy a couple games for the Ngage if they're delivered that way.

i, for one, don't mind having an ngage-type device, given it does well what it does -- i.e. has a variety of good enough games

Where exactly will these come from, huh? Once the initial trickle of sparse selection of launch titles have appeared, where's the rest going to come from huh? Look, Ngage is what, twice as expensive as GBA SP? It also runs only half as long on a charge.

moreover, if have to do an 'either-or' choice i would pick an ngage over a GBA w/o a second thought

Then you're probably one of a very select few of people! I don't see Ngage seizing very many kids, whom are the main consumers of portable consoles because it is unknown and expensive and lacks pokemon and other "must-have" titles, nor do I see it seize many youths or grownups because it is a console which they don't need.

because of the device accessibility. yes, a cellular phone is something an adult always carries with him

Extremely few adults play portable console games. I've like NEVER seen anyone play one in public.

[/quote]do i have big pockets where to put it?'. with a device that you carry with you anyhow, those questions just don't exist.[/quote]

GBA SP + a normal-sized cellphone are hardly any bigger than Ngage I would think.

i'd like to see 3-5 people "cable-chained", having good fun. honestly, i would!

Classic GB supported up to 4 players. Not sure about GBA. Anyway, I'd like to see 4-5 people IN THE SAME CITY owning a Ngage. Looks to be a statistically very rare event, hehehehehe!

aren't sony trying to do the same with their PSP unit - a multy-purpose enterntainment device targetting the adult audience?

No, I don't think so. As far as I can see, PSP will be a game playing device, not a cell phone and a half-assed palmtop with browsing and email capabilities.

btw, don't even dream that sony would make their PSP as open a platform as nokia have made their ngage -- those two companies just have different philosophies.

Yes, there's absolutely no prescidence in Sony's past of opening up their consoles... *cough* PS yaroze *cough* PS2 linux kit *cough*

*G*

 

[Tagrineth]

Classic GB supported up to 4 players. Not sure about GBA. Anyway, I'd like to see 4-5 people IN THE SAME CITY owning a Ngage. Looks to be a statistically very rare event, hehehehehe!

Classic GB needed a funky adapter for 4 player play. (special cable, very rare, as a result very few GB games support it)

GBA's link cables have an additional port in the middle of them for daisy-chaining up to four GBA's.

 

[Crazyace]

Arm is pretty good for 3D..

I remember playing Zarch on a 4MHz Archimedes computer ( first ARM machine ) which was a full 3D game - the GBA is 4x faster than that,
and has a lot of sprite related tricks as well ( and a lower res screen... )

On PC's some of the main slow down points for software rendering were the ISA bus speeds to write to VGA memory ( area blits were fast local to local, but host to local took more time )
The new machines like the Nokia effectively has video in main memory, so you can leverage fast writes and caches as needed..

 

[darkblu]

you can't say "it wasn't build for those tasks"

Sure I can. GBA *CAN'T* be..
<snip>

i didn't mean the GBA to be turned into a cell phone, i meant your notion of what should be and what should not be included in such a device per se, as it's a question of target audience - what's so hard to grasp here?

apparently the audience targetted with ngage is not the same as GBA's

...And apparantly, Nokia hasn't the faintest idea who those people are and neither do anybody else!

please be reasonable. you're neither nokia, nor "everybody else", for that matter.

It seems they're making a gaming cell phone and put it out on the market in the vain hope people will suddenly start to buy them! How will you get new games into it, does it have a cartridge slot, or do you have to download them?

you either download them live, or download them on a pc and then upload them to the device (via cable, infrared or bluetooth). people have been practicing similarly with their PDA's for ages, and nobody complained.

GPRS is horrendously slow and HORRENDOUSLY expensive, I have to pay about $0.15 per KILOBYTE of data transferred, a game would realistically be a at least a couple hundred kbytes, nobody could afford that!

first, you are not oblidged to use live GPRS updates (see prev para). second, don't expect GPRS to stay that expensive for long. at least not in europe.

i, for one, don't mind having an ngage-type device, given it does well what it does -- i.e. has a variety of good enough games

Where exactly will these come from, huh? Once the initial trickle of sparse selection of launch titles have appeared, where's the rest going to come from huh?

the symbian platform is an open development platform, just the same as M$ windows is - where do applications come from on the pc? - they come from entrepreneurial developers

Look, Ngage is what, twice as expensive as GBA SP? It also runs only half as long on a charge.

step out of the GBA mindset for a second. a good cell phone in europe is easily $300 when bought alone. OTH, when bought as a part of an operator's bundle, same phone could be as low as ~$25. the ngage is a good cell phone, plus handheld console -- it's perfectly normal that it's retail price be ~$300. my present cellular is more expensive than than, and i'll be replacing it in a year, max.

moreover, if have to do an 'either-or' choice i would pick an ngage over a GBA w/o a second thought

Then you're probably one of a very select few of people! I don't see Ngage seizing very many kids, whom are the main consumers of portable consoles because it is unknown and expensive and lacks pokemon and other "must-have" titles, nor do I see it seize many youths or grownups because it is a console which they don't need.

seems we're living on different planes with you. 8th-grade kids in europe have cell phones, not to mention the grownups. what "selected few" are you talking about?!?

because of the device accessibility. yes, a cellular phone is something an adult always carries with him

Extremely few adults play portable console games. I've like NEVER seen anyone play one in public.

says you. i personally play games on my phone regularly, particularly when on a public transport (as i consider that time as 'leisure time'). and i have friends and colleagues who do the same. feel free to come and watch me sometime.

do i have big pockets where to put it?'. with a device that you carry with you anyhow, those questions just don't exist.

GBA SP + a normal-sized cellphone are hardly any bigger than Ngage I would think.

you still don't get it. it doesn't matter how big a GBA + a cell phone are cumulatively. let me help you with an example of what i mean. answer me this: do you have a GBA? if so, do you always, ever, unconditionally carry it with you?

i'd like to see 3-5 people "cable-chained", having good fun. honestly, i would!

Classic GB supported up to 4 players. Not sure about GBA. Anyway, I'd like to see 4-5 people IN THE SAME CITY owning a Ngage. Looks to be a statistically very rare event, hehehehehe!

aren't sony trying to do the same with their PSP unit - a multy-purpose enterntainment device targetting the adult audience?

No, I don't think so. As far as I can see, PSP will be a game playing device, not a cell phone and a half-assed palmtop with browsing and email capabilities.

too bad for the PSP then.

btw, don't even dream that sony would make their PSP as open a platform as nokia have made their ngage -- those two companies just have different philosophies.

Yes, there's absolutely no prescidence in Sony's past of opening up their consoles... *cough* PS yaroze *cough* PS2 linux kit *cough*

seems you have a problem understanding what an open platform is.
ok, let me put it for you this way: how many games have you played on the ps1/ps2 which were developed on the yaroze/ps2 linux kit?

 

[Crazyace]

I think Xai ( Devil Dice ) was originally a Yaroze developed concept...

 

[notAFanB]

seems you have a problem understanding what an open platform is.
ok, let me put it for you this way: how many games have you played on the ps1/ps2 which were developed on the yaroze/ps2 linux kit?

I thought an open platform is where anyone has access to docs and can development software for said platform.

whether the said titles make to the mainstream is moot.

but neither PS2 nor PS2 are open in this respect.

 

[darkblu]

I think Xai ( Devil Dice ) was originally a Yaroze developed concept...

it may have been completely developed on the yaroze just as well. point is the developer then had to purchase a license in order to get Xai published.

I thought an open platform is where anyone has access to docs and can develop software for said platform. whether the said titles make to the mainstream is moot.

exactly. with the only remark that anyone can develop and publish software for said platform w/o a license from the IHV.

 

[Phil]

i might aswell add some fuel to the already burning fire (I'm not going to mention under which member something seems to be burning...)

I remember Nokia's mp3s combo cellphone to be quite a hit. Games are becoming the next big thing in cellphones now. A few years ago when Motorola was big, none were existant, but now... almost every cellphone has them. The N-Gage ist just the next step. While I don't see the majority of business men buying it for it's gaming capabilities, I do see many younger people buying one (and they make up for quite a big amount of the cellphone market, at least in Europe).

Grall, what is so different about Nokia targeting a wider audiance with a game+cellphone device in one, then Sony targeting a wider audiance with a digital media hub in PS3 or a multi purpous gaming device with additional capabilities in PSP?

Both companies are doing the same thing, although taking a different approach. IMO, if Nintendo seriously doesn't acknowledge this as a form of competition, I don't see them holding their 'monopoly' very long.

Think about the success of cellphones... if you can sell them and offer games that will be bought, it just might grow and form a market of its own. Who's to say that that market may not form together with the game-handheld market that is today? This is absolutely no different than what Sony is indirectly doing with CELL and PS3.

note that I am not trying to convince anyone that N-Gage will be a success, but that it's form of offering gaming-capabilities while being a cellphone has great potential.

 

[Grall]

'Think of the success of cell phones', well think of the success of electrical toothbrushes, do you seriously suggest integrating THOSE with a cell phone as well?

Just because ONE THING ON ITS OWN is successful doesn't mean it'll stay that way if you combine it with something else, something entirely different. Chocolate cake frosting is yummy and steak is yummy, yet I wouldn't ever consider combining the two on the same plate at the same time.

Nokia has a product that DOESN'T appeal to the core game player audience because it is expensive, it doesn't have a software library and it isn't sold in toy stores. The product also doesn't appeal to phone users because it is expensive, large and has an useless game console built into it. The past is full of examples of failed attempts to combine two different things into one, I don't think I need to elaborate any further. Focus on what you're good at!

Longer, more elaborate reply later, it's too hot here right now.

*G*

 

[Phil]

Grall:

'Think of the success of cell phones', well think of the success of electrical toothbrushes, do you seriously suggest integrating THOSE with a cell phone as well?

Please be reasonable. The cellphone has already evolved from just being a communicating device. Look around you. It's almost a standard feature to find games in cellphones today, let alone that people actually play them.

Just because ONE THING ON ITS OWN is successful doesn't mean it'll stay that way if you combine it with something else, something entirely different. Chocolate cake frosting is yummy and steak is yummy, yet I wouldn't ever consider combining the two on the same plate at the same time.

That's the flaw of your argument. It's not something entirely different: it's still a cellphone, just with added gaming capabilities. Give me a multi device that lets me do everything and I'm in for sure.

Nokia has a product that DOESN'T appeal to the core game player audience because it is expensive, it doesn't have a software library and it isn't sold in toy stores. The product also doesn't appeal to phone users because it is expensive, large and has an useless game console built into it. The past is full of examples of failed attempts to combine two different things into one, I don't think I need to elaborate any further. Focus on what you're good at!

I'd argue the second part actually. If you really believe that it doesn't appeal to phone users, then I suggest you take a look at the pricing of today's cellphones. Also, Nokia has been selling many of their mp3/cellphone combo which in itself isn't that small. You really think a game/cellphone combo at the same size will turn off users?

As for the first part, well, as has been said multiple times already - I believe the N-Gage or any product of its kind will not be a direct competitor to the handheld market Nintendo monopolized. I do however believe that a device like that, could possibly create a market of its own which will eventually form with the handheld market in the future, if grows big enough. Again I care to point out Sony's strategy who is about to combine their PSP into some gaming handheld with pocketpc/walkman capabilities. Further, you have the PSX which is a combined game console with added video capabilities - something the PS2 already did to lesser degree. You want to argue that that wasn't a good strategy too? Your logic merely suggest that any product that tries to target a broader audiance by combining various products into one device will fail - yet Sony has done this already successfully with PS2, will do so with PSP and I'm sure the N-Gage won't be far off a little success on its own.

Longer, more elaborate reply later, it's too hot here right now.

That will be interesting...