Video games not just for grandkids

[Acert93]

Just a general comment: I was first introduced to Eye-Toy from these forums. The other gaming forums didn't mention it and I don't get mags. My first real world experience with Eye-Toy was at a kiosk in late 2005. I would say I am fairly well informed and in touch with much of the marketing for the companies and I would say Eye-Toy was a very small blip on my radar and if not for some of the "input debate" discussions here I am not even sure Eye-Toy PS2t would stick out in my mind (even though I noted I would be dissappointed if MS/Sony did not include a camera as a basic features of the new consoles, although primarily for mapping and video features).

Wii is the opposite. Not only is the entire marketing campaign from Nintendo revolving around it, it is THE central feature to the upgraded/modified GCN... errr... Wii. And all the games are using it.

In theory there may be a number of similarities, but in regards to reality there is a huge disparity. Being standard means a lot in terms of quality software, support, and exposure of the feature. If you surveyed old farts and asked them what Wii was and what Eye-Toy was a significantly larger percentage would know what the Wii was. And for that reason alone Nintendo has put themselves in the prime position to sell to this market. If Sony wanted to position Eye-Toy2 similarly they would have needed it to be standard as well as focusing their marketing toward the features as well as broad game support. These are all lacking, leaving this area mainly for Nintendo to harvest.

While I like the Eye-Toy concept (the augmented reality card game looks way cool and I am two thumbs up on video in games as well as face mapping) if I were buying a console for an "alternative" experience I would go with Wii for the simple reason it is standard and the focus of the platform.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There's still some hokey reasoning going on here IMO.

1) Wii has sold faster than any other launch console.
- Wii is easier to make than any other launch console, and cheaper. That it's selling fast cannot be entirely attributed to reaching out to more than existing gamers. If it wasn't appealing to octagenarians, it would likely still be selling as fast as it now to existintg gamers who want the novel gaming interface.

2) EyeToy was never as big.
- EyeToy was launched as peripheral and only got the coverage of a peripheral. Wii has launched as a new console alongside two others with a lot of press covering all three. Wii's particulars have been known and discussed for some 2 years or so. That's obviously going to reach out to more people than before. Ask anyone keen on Wii what they think of EyeToy, and you'll likely get a blank look. That doesn't mean EyeToy wasn't as good in reaching out to the greater public as Wii is - it just means it got less mindset penetration.

Now in terms of being used by a new load of people, sure, Wii's way out there. It's bound to get more attention and Nintendo are doing an impressive thing in that regard. What it's doing though, which has always been my point here, isn't new, never before seen. If you want to say 'Wii will be used by more old people than any other console' I'll nod in agreement. If you want to say 'old people are playing games now when nothing before could tempt them' I'll shake my head. That's my only contribution here, really! It seems that Stateside, EyeToy was glossed over, while Wii is getting major attention. Over here, I don'y know Wii is doing, but I know EyeToy was big. It did sell at least 6 million devices worldwide which means there's more out there now than Wii's, at this precise moment in time. EyeToy wasn't 'just another peripheral'. It had a movement behind it (ho ho ho). This movement lost speed, presumably because the games lacked diversity (just another set of party games) and/or the fun in playing with full-body control was a short-lived thing. Whatever, EyeToy sold lots and got no-gamers gaming. PS2 wasn't just for the grandkids!

 

[Natoma]

There's still some hokey reasoning going on here IMO.

1) Wii has sold faster than any other launch console.
- Wii is easier to make than any other launch console, and cheaper. That it's selling fast cannot be entirely attributed to reaching out to more than existing gamers. If it wasn't appealing to octagenarians, it would likely still be selling as fast as it now to existintg gamers who want the novel gaming interface.

If it's not selling to more than existing gamers, who is it selling to then? Whether they be old or they be young, it's still reaching a broader audience than typical gamers.

As I said before, I pointed to this article in part because of the stark contrast between who we typically define as gamers, and who is covered in the article.

As for the Wii being easier to make than any other launch console, who cares? It could sell for $50 and I guarantee you if there wasn't the same buzz around it in the media and talk about a new play experience, it wouldn't be selling as well as it is right now. Point is, people have to want the console, a far broader audience than gamers, in order for it to be selling as well as it is.

The hokey reasons you've given to try and play that down are honestly nonsense imo.

2) EyeToy was never as big.
- EyeToy was launched as peripheral and only got the coverage of a peripheral. Wii has launched as a new console alongside two others with a lot of press covering all three. Wii's particulars have been known and discussed for some 2 years or so. That's obviously going to reach out to more people than before. Ask anyone keen on Wii what they think of EyeToy, and you'll likely get a blank look. That doesn't mean EyeToy wasn't as good in reaching out to the greater public as Wii is - it just means it got less mindset penetration.

Now in terms of being used by a new load of people, sure, Wii's way out there. It's bound to get more attention and Nintendo are doing an impressive thing in that regard. What it's doing though, which has always been my point here, isn't new, never before seen. If you want to say 'Wii will be used by more old people than any other console' I'll nod in agreement. If you want to say 'old people are playing games now when nothing before could tempt them' I'll shake my head. That's my only contribution here, really! It seems that Stateside, EyeToy was glossed over, while Wii is getting major attention. Over here, I don'y know Wii is doing, but I know EyeToy was big. It did sell at least 6 million devices worldwide which means there's more out there now than Wii's, at this precise moment in time. EyeToy wasn't 'just another peripheral'. It had a movement behind it (ho ho ho). This movement lost speed, presumably because the games lacked diversity (just another set of party games) and/or the fun in playing with full-body control was a short-lived thing. Whatever, EyeToy sold lots and got no-gamers gaming. PS2 wasn't just for the grandkids!

No one ever said the EyeToy sucked. No one ever said peripherals before the Wii didn't have the same audience-broadening intent. No one ever said consoles before the Wii didn't have older gamers or bring in people who typically weren't gamers. I think that's like the fifth time I've personally said that, not to mention others. Have you been reading the arguments made in this thread? Or have you been overlaying what you have assumed the arguments in this thread are?

What has been stated before is that the Wii is doing all of it in an unprecedented fashion. The Wii is not only geared for this from the very start, but the marketing is also geared toward this.

Joshua Luna's prior post states as much in a very succinct fashion imo.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

As for the Wii being easier to make than any other launch console, who cares?

If PS3 cost $200 and was made en masse, would it not sell 5 million units in 3 months? Yes, and to existing gamers, not necessarily to brand new never-before-played-games customers. I repeat, the fact that Wii is selling well is no indicator it's selling to non-gamers. It might be selling to non-gamers, but the sales figures themselves don't provide that information. the only reason to think otherwise is if existing gamers have vocally snubbed the Wii so we know existing gamers aren't buying it - and that's not the case.

Point is, people have to want the console, a far broader audience than gamers, in order for it to be selling as well as it is.

Okay, where's the proof in that? How do you know that console is selling to people who otherwise haven't and don't buy consoles? How do you know that a large proportion of those 5 million customers haven't owned a PS2 or such?

Do you not see what I'm saying? You attribute high sales figures to new markets, while that info on who's buying the console isn't being made available. Ther'e's some 150 million gamers out there based on last gen console sales. How do you know that 5 million or part thereof is not from that same 150 million?

What has been stated before is that the Wii is doing all of it in an unprecedented fashion. The Wii is not only geared for this from the very start, but the marketing is also geared toward this.

Again, how do you know the reach of Wii into uncharted territories is something unprecedented? Because it's selling quickly? And you know for a fact that it's not selling to existing console gamers, but to new people who have never cared for console gaming?

I absolutely agree with Joshua's comments that Wii is being well marketted. That more people know about Wii and are enjoying it's games does not mean more unconventional gamers are being attracted to buy into the platform though. If you can poll a thousand old folks and have a thousand say 'yes, I know what Wii is and it looks interesting, but I've no idea what an EyeToy is', that doesn't mean those thousand old folks are going to buy a Wii. If you can poll 1000 old folks and all of them have played a Wii, that's very different. At the moment, what proportion of older folks have played Wii? How did that compare with EyeToy, showing that its reach is far greater? Wii is sure to become a cultural icon for open gaming by volume of sales. It'll penetrate the mass psyche and become a defining aspect of gaming. I agree with that. A news report about one place having a Wii being enjoyed by older folk is not the information that proves that though. Neither is high initial sales.

 

[Natoma]

1) No other console has sold as quickly as the Wii has after launch. Even the vaunted PS2 didn't have sales this brisk after launch. The NES, relative to the size of its market, was probably the last console to do what the Wii has done over these first few months.

And no, that isn't stating that the Wii will become the NES of our time, because frankly I think that's the PS2.

2) Anecdotal evidence in the form of articles from all over the world talking about the people who are playing the Wii and people who are buying the Wii. The only way to have demographic information for sure is to have Nintendo break it down in some way shape or form. And that would probably be impossible unless they had a 100% response rate on their Customer Survey cards.

Given the sales rate and all of these articles, which certainly don't exist in a vacuum, one can strongly infer that Nintendo's marketing push is succeeding in terms of broadening the gaming market.

3) You can't state that there are 150 million gamers out there. How many GC owners had a PS2? How many PS2 owners had an XBox? And so forth and so on. If you look at cross platform ownership surveys, I'd probably say its closer to 80-100 million.

4) There have been many articles posted on this forum, as well as notes of experience from other console posters regarding the Wii, who is playing it, and who is buying it. This article is not alone in that sea of information, which gives us more insight into the Wii marketplace at this time.

At the end of the day, there's nothing short of the actual demographic data from Nintendo that will seem to convince you. So I'll just leave it at this and go about my way reading every day anecdotal evidence that supports the general thought process that Wii is expanding the boundaries of typical gamers.

 

[TheChefO]

A news report about one place having a Wii being enjoyed by older folk is not the information that proves that though.

Shifty let me ask you: How is the Wii selling in your area? How many people have you heard about that have bought Wii that did not own a ps2?



Biggest difference I would say between Wii and any console before is for the first time Parents and Grandparents that were not gamers before are buying the Wii for themselves, not to enjoy only when the kids come over.

There are many instances of parents toying with gaming with their kids before. Not many stories of grandpa waiting in line to pick up a games console.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Shifty let me ask you: How is the Wii selling in your area? How many people have you heard about that have bought Wii that did not own a ps2?

I've heard of none, and I've heard of no non-gamers buyinginto Wii. Everyone I know with a Wii had a prior console. But that's not many people. I'm not activly reseraching this topic!

Biggest difference I would say between Wii and any console before is for the first time Parents and Grandparents that were not gamers before are buying the Wii for themselves, not to enjoy only when the kids come over.

That's what I'd like to know, and it's those reports that'd make for better evidence that Wii's reaching out, rather than a report that Wii is being enjoyed in an old folks home. It's all very people saying 'look at the number of rate of articles on Wii apearing, and you'll see it's a big thing reching out,' but I'm not seeing any of those reports. Nothing round here. What I have seen about Wii is similar in noise level to what I saw for EyeToy, which is why I raised it.

There are many instances of parents toying with gaming with their kids before. Not many stories of grandpa waiting in line to pick up a games console.

Then link to those stories, rather than one of old folk's having a Wii bought for them at a home!

I'm not asking for exact demographics from Nintendo - just a reasonable amount of anecdotal evidence would cover that. Again, the only evidence respented in this thread was one article about an old folks home, which isn't proof positive. Everything else is 'there's an abundance of evidence out there' which no-one's presenting! If the purpose of the article is to show Wii's selling to 'non-gamers', more of that is needed, and a different title. The current title doesn't match the discussion

 

[Natoma]

Read this for a while. You'll find a lot of news stories on this subject. Also check out the Wii impression thread on this forum.

http://news.google.com/news?q=nintendo&ie=UTF-8

 

[Natoma]

Here's another article on Wii:

http://www.mlive.com/features/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/features-0/1173371072162300.xml&coll=7

Wii will rock you Nintendo system sparks group fun, broad interest

Kathy Olsen isn't the stereotypical gamer.

For one thing, she's a woman, and for another, she's 56, the mother of three grown children and proud grandmother of four. In the past, she purchased video-game consoles for her children but never played the games herself.

With Nintendo's Wii, that all changed.

``I never played video games before, but I kept hearing how fun it was,'' said Olsen, an employment and training coordinator for Michigan Works. ``I decided to splurge and treat myself.''

So, a few weeks after the Wii was released, Olsen stood in line for two hours at the Best Buy store on South Westnedge Avenue to purchase the slim, white system that has rocked the video-game industry.

The Wii is renowned for its pared-down graphics, motion-controlled action, Internet access and customizable characters. Since its release on Nov. 19, it has surprised many people by outselling other systems like Sony's PlayStation 3 and Microsoft's XBox 360 and has attracted attention from many kinds of people.

Karlis Kaugars, director of information technology and facilities and associate professor of computer science at Western Michigan University, attributes the Wii's success to the ``fun factor.''

``They've attracted a market share among non-gamers,'' Kaugars said. ``The Wii has gone out and said, `Hey, it's fun to play this thing.'''

Kaugars notes a shift in both video-game consumers and how they interact with one another.

``It used to be true that games were marketed to 14- to 18-year-old males,'' he said. ``It's since expanded to the 14- to 60-year-old male. According to some research done, when males play games, what they are looking for is the shortest path to solution. Females are looking for a richer, interactive experience. With the Wii, it's that rich, interactive experience with other people physically in the same room.''

It's a 4 page article. This is page 1.

 

[cthellis42]

This should put some perspective on the sales #s that come out every month. If they're selling ~500k consoles in the Americas per month and ~300k consoles in Japan, that doesn't leave much wiggle room for Europe and the other territories around the world.

Oddly, the Wii is selling well under that in Japan already. I'm not sure if that's a reflection of stock, waiting for new compelling titles, or perhaps a shift for Japan becoming a portable-only video game economy.

Gotta sacrifice SOMETHING to buy more DS games!

 

[Natoma]

Oddly, the Wii is selling well under that in Japan already. I'm not sure if that's a reflection of stock, waiting for new compelling titles, or perhaps a shift for Japan becoming a portable-only video game economy.

Gotta sacrifice SOMETHING to buy more DS games!

Are they? They're moving around 70-80k consoles a week in Japan according to the Media Create and Famitsu #s. That translates to 280-320k consoles a month.

 

[Turok]

Yeah... video games stopped being only "for kids" ever since the original Doom came out.

 

[cthellis42]

Are they? They're moving around 70-80k consoles a week in Japan according to the Media Create and Famitsu #s. That translates to 280-320k consoles a month.

Ah, right. That was me not doing mental math because I'm still running a temperature of 102. >_<

Still frustrates me that we don't have large and reliable weekly sales numbers in the US.

 

[Natoma]

Ah, right. That was me not doing mental math because I'm still running a temperature of 102. >_<

Still frustrates me that we don't have large and reliable weekly sales numbers in the US.

I should neg rep you for being on a computer with a fever. That's not healthy.

 

[cthellis42]

I should neg rep you for being on a computer with a fever. That's not healthy.

For me, or for others?

The Wii does seem to be on a decline, though; certainly it's not feeding as much off the "DS effect" as one might imagine. The PS3 has picked up a bit (but probably only temporarily until a real system seller for Japan shows... and maybe the first price cut) and the Wii seems to be heading down to level off at 50k/week until its' own next big game. (Paper Mario is due in a few weeks, but it didn't sell tremendously on the Cube. But then this one draws more on classic Mario platforming, so it should do better. But is that actually it until the end of the year for strong 1st party titles? ...or have they not officially given the Japanese release for some like Mario Party? Wait, there's a Dragon Quest due in the summer, too, isn't there? It's not a numbered one, though...)

Of course ALL hardware is down at the moment, so it's hard to read much long-term in the numbers, but of course the DS is keeping up high sales regardless, and the PSP may not retain its' Monster Hunter 2 jump and level off lower.

...what a weird game to be so popular for the PSP in Japan, btw. But I guess they had to pick something...

 

[Natoma]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/life/entertainment/news-article.aspx?storyid=78044

Nintendo's Wii Finding a Much Older Audience

The video game craze isn't just for kids anymore. Now, there's a new generation of gamers in southern New Jersey and they're using one of the hottest new game systems on the market!

They've got the fancy footwork...and a firm grip on the remote. But this generation of gamers is from the older generation.

"I love it. I love it. I would play it all the time" says Clarence Smith.

Welcome to the Dennis Township Senior Center, which just became home to one of the hottest new video game systems out there -- the Nintendo Wii. Ever since Center Director, Rosemarie Essig bought the wii the place has been turned into a virtual bowling alley.

"I knew they can do it. A lot of them can't bowl anymore, the ball too heavy for them, it's too strenuous," said Roemarie Essig, senior center director.

The seniors will eventually take swing at the Wii's golf game as well. But a bowling tournament is coming first as they prove their generation hasn't been spared by the videogame craze.

 

[Natoma]

I saw the addictive power of the Nintendo DS Lite first hand today. My 53yr old mother has never been a gamer in her life. Today I go with her and her husband to see my brother in upstate New York, and I brought my DS Lite with me for the 2hr car ride.

The conversation went something like this:

------------------------
Mom: "What is that?"

Me: "Oh this is a DS Lite. It's a hand held gaming system from Nintendo. The game is Brain Age. You have Sudoku, math puzzles, voice puzzles, etc. It's pretty fun."

Mom: "Let me try."

30 minutes later......

Mom: "I want a DS Lite, and I want this game."

Me: "What??"

Mom: "This is unbelievable. This game says I have a Brain Age of 73! I'm mad."

Me: "Err, ok. We can get you one today at a game store."

Mom: "Great. Honey, can I get one today?"

Mom's Husband: "I have nothing to do with this. Do as you please. "
----------------------

Roughly 4 hours later, we walked out of a Gamestop with a Pink DS Lite, Brain Age, Big Brain Academy, and a note to buy Touch Master when it comes out in several weeks. She steals my DS Lite for the car ride home and gets her Brain Age down to 45 on several more tries. Her husband commented "I can't believe this. I have never EVER seen your mother get addicted to any game so quickly. This is amazing."

I gotta say, you never really understand the impact of the DS Lite or the Wii until you see the reactions of non-gamers first hand. I got my first dose today.

 

[StefanS]

I saw the addictive power of the Nintendo DS Lite first hand today. My 53yr old mother has never been a gamer in her life. Today I go with her and her husband to see my brother in upstate New York, and I brought my DS Lite with me for the 2hr car ride.

Roughly 4 hours later, we walked out of a Gamestop with a Pink DS Lite, Brain Age, Big Brain Academy, and a note to buy Touch Master when it comes out in several weeks. She steals my DS Lite for the car ride home and gets her Brain Age down to 45 on several more tries. Her husband commented "I can't believe this. I have never EVER seen your mother get addicted to any game so quickly. This is amazing."

I gotta say, you never really understand the impact of the DS Lite or the Wii until you see the reactions of non-gamers first hand. I got my first dose today.

Actually something similar happened with my mother as well. Also mid fifties and never really touched a game console, but after showing her Brain Age she was hooked as well. Now she's also got a new DS Lite, Brain Age and Big Brain Academy.

 

[Nesh]

Well very good points brought here and there after reading again the posts in this thread but the actual important question isnt how many old people got a Wii, but if those people will also be long term gamers and become dedicated.

Secondly something that it is worth mentioning is that many of the examples brought arent grown ups who bought theirselves a Wii but grown ups who bought it for their grandchildren or children or who tried someone else's Wii and got excited. If they are playing other people's Wii's they arent Wii owners.

Lastly I think that the console that also deserves credit for bringing actual mature gaming to the masses is the Playstation1.

Grown ups used to see consoles as a kid's playing thing or a waste of time before. But the Playstation did something very well and differently and one of the things it did was great marketing and...Wipeout.

It was the first time I saw grown ups intersted about a gaming console. And I dont mean just interest. I mean some form of dedication.

What they marveled was also the "creativity", depth and needed skill in games that their kids couldnt play due to the higher "complexity" of these titles.

For example my dad liked Wipeout A LOT. For its music, visual style and gameplay (although he was never very good at it). Then I must have been 13 years old when we got our first console. It was beyond what I experienced before and felt too complex for me for some time until I got used to it.

It wasnt just my father though. The underground atmosphere, the serious electronic music in it, the skill needed etc gave a mature image to the Playstation. There are still many people who talk about the influence that game had on them.

Sony also did great marketing for the console which didnt present it as another "electronic toy" but a high tech piece of gaming entertainment. 3D graphics, advanced gameplay.

Oh and lets not forget Tomb Raider. It was the game that really pulled my dad in later. I never saw my father talk about a game so much. That game alone made him talk some of his friends into it who at the end also bought a PS just for Tomb Raider!

Playstation kind of brought mature gaming to grown ups with mature and more complex games, Wii is getting grown ups back to their child roots with simple and fun games

 

[Rainbow Man]

Her husband commented "I can't believe this. I have never EVER seen your mother get addicted to any game so quickly. This is amazing."

Weeelll..

I hve an old highschool calssmate whose mother loved to play the gameboy. This was the first gameboy ever by the way so quite a long time ago now.

Thing is shge would only ever play tetris on it. And nothing else.

As I understandn she became quite adept at stacking blocks hehe.

Later the family got a PC. So then she moved up to PC gaming instead (or maybe she kept tetrising I dunno). Oh what PC games? Minesweeper of course.

Peqace.