Joe DeFuria said:
Natoma said:
[Being secure with your sexuality] is a trait that a lot of straight men do not share.
I don't necessarily agree with that, nor do I know where you get that idea from. Sounds like what a lot of homosexuals SAY a "lot of striaght men do not have," just because a lot of stright men disagree with homosexuality.
I presume you are secure iwth your own sexuality, at least at this point in your life, and I would argue that a lot higher proportion of homo/bi/trans sexuals have issues with being secure in their sexuality than heteros.
You misunderstand where I'm coming from. I know many straight men who are not in any way shape or form attracted to other guys. In fact they tell me that thinking about having sex with other guys is not something they consider sexy, and in many cases it actually turns their stomach.
However, they do not go out of their way to through that in my face, and in fact are quite respectful when I'm around with my partner. It's the ones who are some vehemently against homosexuality that they feel the need to go out of their way to voice their "icky" "ewwwwww" "nasty" attitudes whenever they see a gay person walking down the street, generally being unnecessarily disrespectful, that I have issues with. It's those people that I believe are not secure with their sexuality.
In almost every case, I've found that many of those people are indeed fighting their own sexuality and desires. Every case of the people I've known personally that is, and seeing profiled stories on television, and reading about them on the internet.
You're right, I am secure in my sexuality. However, that took years and years and years. It wasn't because of my own inhibitions. Quite the contrary, it was because I was afraid of what my family and friends would do to me. I was, at 12, 13, 14, etc, afraid that I'd get kicked out of my parent's home. That I'd lose my friends, or get harassed. I also had years of religious upbringing to fight my way through. I grew up in church from 2yrs old until I was 19.
That is what causes many gay men and women to hide their sexuality.
Joe DeFuria said:
Men and women in our society have never showered together in any circumstance, in the manner in which you espouse. Why? Because there was the strong fear that given that nakedness, the showers would turn into massive orgies, and that the men and women would not be able to control themselves.
Where did this factoid come from? I don't presume to know the "origins of sexual separation", but if I had to guess, it's less about fear of massive origies breaking out, and more about personal sexuality generally being (historically) viewed as "sacred."
You'd be surprised, but it's a fairly recent occurrence. Today's puritanical views toward sex that is. Most of the societal ideas toward sex were formed during the Renaissance, nurtured during the Elizabethan age, and truly permeated all facets of society during the Victorian age. Google "victorian age separation sexes" and "elizabethan age separation sexes" for some quality articles.
Most of the ideas toward sex were not personal, but religious. Sex, gender, and sexuality were viewed as constructs of marriage only. At least, the good kind was. You know, the whole madonna/whore complex.
You may not know this, but the puritans for example, only engaged in sexual intercourse, even while married
, only if there was a sheet between them, with a little hole for the actual physical intercourse to take place.
Chastity belts, showing no skin, sheet sex, madonna/whore complex, etc. They were all a result of the overly religious context with which sex was placed. So it's no surprise that women and men were never allowed to be in the showers with one another.
Fear that carnal thoughts would take over and raunch and debauchery would rule the day, because we're all evil flesh in the eyes of god, or some other religious doggerel.
Joe DeFuria said:
As I said before, I honestly think it comes down to straight men being scared of gay sexuality, or maybe sexuality in general. I mean, straight men are generally denigrated if they don't talk about how many women they screw, how much pussy they got, how long their dick is, etc etc etc.
Are there any other stereotypes you can throw out there about us "striaght men?" For somone who often claims how many (most?) heteros don't understand homos and just repeat the same old cliche's and stereotypes about them, you seem to do a good job of doing that yourself to the heteros.
After I wrote that and was on the way home, I realized that I should have clarified my statement. Many *immature* heterosexual men, and you find a lot of them in sports locker rooms, high schools, and other "I'm All Man" venues, engage in such puerile behavior.
How many girls did you screw? How long is your dick? C'mon, call that girl out on the street and hoot at her. Walking with quite a few of my girlfriends, and hanging out with quite a few of my heterosexual male friends, I've seen both sides of the coin.
Joe DeFuria said:
I think it relates back to the idea that men are not threatened by women doing those types of things, and in fact encourage it, because it plays into the whole "role" situation of one man, many women, that biologically drives humanity as a whole.
Possibly, though I think that both men and women can actually appreciate the beauty that is the form of a feminine woman's body. In other words, ask a man (or woman) if he/she minds seeing two "butch" women together. I find that about as repulsive as seing two men together. Two supermodels? (Whether or not they are actually gay or striagt). Woohoo!
I think straight men are easily capable of appreciating the attractiveness of other men, just as gay men are easily capable of appreciating the attractiveness of women. It doesn't mean that they want to bag that person though. hehe. But it is not something that is generally smiled upon by our society unfortunately.
You can hear a woman say "Oh wow she is so beautiful!" and mean it as nothing more than an innocuous compliment. But if you hear a man say "Oh wow he is so gorgeous" people automatically turn their head and sneer, even if it was an innocent appreciation of physical beauty. There is certainly a double standard there in terms of what men are allowed to express while maintaining their heterosexual masculinity, if there is such a thing.
Fyi people always tell me I'm the straightest male they know. My cousin and my brother, who I'm both close to, simply would not believe me when I told them I was gay, because of the stereotype they had in their head about what a gay man is supposed to act and look like. To many people, because of how I'm built, how I carry myself, etc, I come across as a stereotypical heterosexual male, whatever that's worth. hehe.
See what I'm getting at? Again, this goes back to how comfortable I am with my sexuality these days.
Joe DeFuria said:
But again this is getting into psychology and philosophy, which is a difficult topic to have any debate on that will result in a resolution.
Agreed.
Holy shit milk just shot out my nose all over the monitor! Joe agrees with me?
Joe DeFuria said:
Actually the guy explicitly stated that he didn't want guys looking at him, and he didn't think that guys should feel threatened by having a gay guy in the locker room with them. I mean, where exactly are these feelings of "Don't look at me" and feeling threatened coming from? I mean, from my understanding, feeling threatened means that there's a certain modicum of fear involved.
As I said, it's possible that what he said is his actual reason, but I would be inclined to think his statement is his politically correct way of saying "homos repulse me. I just don't want them around."
He may not even know why he's repulsed by it...anymore than you know why you are attracted to men. But if just comes out and says that publically, he'd really get blasted.
I dunno. Saying that he feels threatened by gay men, and saying "Don't come around me" is a pretty strong statement of his dislike for gays. It sounds about even with "homos repulse me. I just don't want them around."
But he did say why he didn't want gays in the majors. He said that he didn't want to feel threatened, and that he didn't want to have to think about some guy looking at him. I mean, those are pretty blatant statements from him. That's why I spent the earlier part of my prior post discussing the possible motivations behind the feeling of being under threat, for example.
Joe DeFuria said:
Fear of homosexuality, of how it's perceived in society? Maybe. "Oh that guy is looking at me and says he's attracted to me. Wtf, do I give off a gay vibe? Do people think I'm gay now? Shit I better beat the shit out of him before anyone else gets any ideas. I need to prove my manhood."
Or some crap like that. I've heard it tons of times. You must have too.
I've heard that from
homosexuals a lot, just like I'm hearing it from you now. I can't ever recall hearing that from a straight man. Ever. I hear homosexuals "explain" the actions of those piece-of-shit heteros that you describe.
Maybe you should talk to some people you are close to, if you know they're homophobic or whatever, and have a serious heart to heart. I've had them a lot, even before I came out, and generally that was the response I got. "I don't want people thinking I'm gay. I need to assert my manhood."
Joe DeFuria said:
Again, where is the dislike coming from? Where is the gut reaction against gays coming from, that results in homophobic comments such as these?
Like most bias (be it ethnic, religious, etc.), a lot of dislike probably comes from a lack of understanding and education. And to be clear, I don't hear such homophobic comments such as those much at all. That's how I hear homosexuals explain hedeous acts against them. I don't equate "dislike" comments or even "hateful" comments with "fearful" comments.
However, I think because many homos just don't want to admit that some people just
genuinely replused by their lifestyle. And again, you can't really expect an answer to
why any more than you can explain why I like women, or you like men.
"We just do."
(And just to be clear, I'm not saying that any amount of dislike is justification for any type of violent action.)
Joe, like religious and racial bias/hatred, a lot of times people don't understand why they hate gays. They just do. I consider that to be an easy out, rather than actually examining the true reasons behind the dislike and/or the revulsion.
Every "dislike" or feeling of revulsion has a cause somewhere. I remember watching an episode of The Real World. One of the most homophobic cast members turned out to have been abused when he was a child, and he hadn't even thought about it. It was the Las Vegas Real World cast.
Joe DeFuria said:
I mean, it doesn't exactly set my heart a flutter to see a guy and a girl kissing and making out and sexing and whatnot. But I don't get feelings of hatred and revulsion and disgust and "I don't want that around me."
But you have to understand that a "guy and a girl" doing those things is the natural order. Even though that's not your order, you innately know that it's natural. I'm not sure how you could have feelings of "hatred" for something that was responsible for producing you, for example.
Many heteros just don't see homosexuality as natural. It is in and of itself repulsive. I can't really blame them for that thought
Would you be repulsed and disgusted by beastiality? (I'm assuming so.) Can you explain
why? Whatever reason you come up with, it's basically the same reason why some heteros are repulsed by homosexuality, even if you don't agree with it. (No, I'm not
equating the two.)
You misunderstand. I *am* repulsed when I see a hetero couple going at it. It's not something that turns me on in any way shape or form. However, that feeling does not translate to hatred, outward revulsion, and feelings of "I don't want to be around that!"
I think those feelings are immature.
As for beastiality, there is no place in nature that shows sex happening between completely different types of animals. I'm not quite brushed up on the animal kingdom classifications, so I'll use a layman's explanation.
You don't see a goat and a tiger. Or a crocodile and a bird. Or a whale and a shark. A cat and a rat?
However, you do see homosexuality in nature. That is why I believe beastiality is not natural, and homosexuality is.
Joe DeFuria said:
OK, we agree on that!
Stop it!
I can't take the strain!