TVs and HD resolutions of Nextgen consoles

[Nick Laslett]

The main reason why I'm holding off on the next gen is to do with display technology. I spent a lot of money 4 years ago to buy a 42" plasma display with a resolution of 852 x 480. I'm very happy with panel, which is great for movies and playing games. (no burnin to report)

At present display technologies seems to be laggging behind HD resolutions.

I'm no expert in this area, but from what I can tell most HD TVs seem to do 720p or 1080i, but not 1080p.

To be honest the leap from 576p (PAL) to 720p is not that great. Going to 1080p seems to be the way to go.

But there is no display device at a reasonable price that can do this.

RPTV and LCD displays have too many flaws to usurp CRT. But CRT's are just too big. Even very high end CRT overhead projectors don't resolve more than 900 verticle lines.

Plasmas seem to have maxed at 760 horizontal lines.

High end 3 chip DLP projectors can do 1080p, but they cost $25,000 upwards.

A 480p image looks very good to me on a 42" screen and it seems like a hard job to eclispse this with a 720p image, when you factor in the cost to get there.

Sure, in 3 years time technology will have moved on and I'm sure by 2008 I will be looking for a new sceen. But until then the HD era seems a little premature.

Or am I completely wrong? Do you all have 1080p capable TVs and your all itching for a video console that can output games in this resolution?

I know a lot of you still use 480i NTSC displays and the jump to 720p must seem amazing, but in PAL land 576p is pretty damn impressive and 720p does not seem like a leap worth spending $2000 to achieve.

Even now a decent HD plasma is still $5000.

I recently had DLP projector installed where I work to drive a 7 foot screen. It is a PAL specific projector with the 576p DLP chip. The image quality is superb and about the maximum screen size you want to have with PAL resolution DVDs. Anything larger begins to reveal the limits of the format.

 

[London Geezer]

1080p is very far off to be the common standard.

Not sure what you've looked at but in my experience the difference from 480i/p to 720p/1080i is truly astounding. And i can't wait to get into the whole HD era thing and watch LOTR in 1080i off an HDDVD/BR/whatever.

In the UK (u're in the UK, right?) we're starting to get information about HDTVs and nice setups, though they're mostly still very expensive.

Besides that, even if i bought an HDTV, i'd have NO HD material (no broadcasts and no HD-DVD/whatever format yet) whatsoever to watch on it, so it's kinda pointless. I'm holding off until we get HDDVD in the UK, that will be the first reason i'll buy an HDDVD. Unless i win the lottery that is, which i don't play anyway.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A friend was talking to me about Carbon NanoTube TVs. If this takes off in the next couple of years, HDTVs should near 1/10th the cost of current HDTVs. Only when such cheap tech is available in one flavour or other will there be a big uptake IMO. A lot of people still haven't got widescreen TVs yet, and there's no decent quantity of widescreen broadcasts either.

In the EU, HD is somewhat redundant and looks to stay that way for a while.

 

[London Geezer]

A friend was talking to me about Carbon NanoTube TVs. If this takes off in the next couple of years, HDTVs should near 1/10th the cost of current HDTVs. Only when such cheap tech is available in one flavour or other will there be a big uptake IMO. A lot of people still haven't got widescreen TVs yet, and there's no decent quantity of widescreen broadcasts either.

In the EU, HD is somewhat redundant and looks to stay that way for a while.

What u mean HD is redundant? Of many abjectives u could give the situation, redundant sounds a bit weird

 

[sytaylor]

l-b, i'll let you invest in my company and make you a millionaire in a few years and then you can buy a HD TV

 

[London Geezer]

l-b, i'll let you invest in my company and make you a millionaire in a few years and then you can buy a HD TV

If you're serious, we can talk about it. There's definately potential there.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I meant adding HD to a console is rahter redundant. It's a feature an awfully large percentage of owners problbaly won't get to see, at least for the first few years of the console.

I'm not saying HD shouldn't be incorporated over here! I want HD multiplayer football!

 

[hey69]

count me also in..


anyway.. the only valid way to have some sort of hd signal to hook up is to mod your console (planning on doing this on my ps2) and connect up with component .

i have GT4 pal but no way to send 1080i thats available on the NTSC version

the introduction of TFT and plasma will accelarate HD in europe

 

[a688]

I meant adding HD to a console is rahter redundant. It's a feature an awfully large percentage of owners problbaly won't get to see, at least for the first few years of the console.

I'm not saying HD shouldn't be incorporated over here! I want HD multiplayer football!

Redundant makes little sense in the way you are using it. How about pointless.

 

[sytaylor]

l-b, i'll let you invest in my company and make you a millionaire in a few years and then you can buy a HD TV

If you're serious, we can talk about it. There's definately potential there.

Not yet, but i'll give you a heads up in due course, so long as you play it close to your chest.

 

[London Geezer]

I meant adding HD to a console is rahter redundant. It's a feature an awfully large percentage of owners problbaly won't get to see, at least for the first few years of the console.

I'm not saying HD shouldn't be incorporated over here! I want HD multiplayer football!

That doesn't mean it's redundant!

Redundant would be (for example) having an upscaler in both the console and the TV, when only one is needed.

 

[sytaylor]

I meant adding HD to a console is rahter redundant. It's a feature an awfully large percentage of owners problbaly won't get to see, at least for the first few years of the console.

I'm not saying HD shouldn't be incorporated over here! I want HD multiplayer football!

Pro evo on the PS3, on a 42inch screen. OMG...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Redundant = Superfluous, unnecessary

HD output is a feature that is excess to requirements for the majority of EU customers, so I stand by the use of my word!

And yeah, PES next-gen should hopefully have the game absolutely spot on

 

[London Geezer]

Redundant = Superfluous, unnecessary

HD output is a feature that is excess to requirements for the majority of EU customers, so I stand by the use of my word!

And yeah, PES next-gen should hopefully have the game absolutely spot on

It means "superfluous cause it's there already, therefore there is no need for it", like repeating things over and over. Not "superfluous per se". Or at least that's how i use it.

 

[London Geezer]

Redundant \Re*dun"dant\ (-dant), a. [L. redundans, -antis, p.
pr. of redundare: cf. F. redondant. See Redound.]
1. Exceeding what is natural or necessary; superabundant;
exuberant; as, a redundant quantity of bile or food.
[1913 Webster]

Notwithstanding the redundant oil in fishes, they do
not increase fat so much as flesh. --Arbuthnot.
[1913 Webster]

2. Using more worrds or images than are necessary or useful;
pleonastic.
[1913 Webster]

Where an suthor is redundant, mark those paragraphs
to be retrenched. --I. Watts.
[1913 Webster]

Syn: Superfluous; superabundant; excessive; exuberant;
overflowing; plentiful; copious.
[1913 Webster]

See also: [Redound]

[2] : WordNet (r) 2.0
redundant
adj 1: more than is needed, desired, or required; "trying to lose
excess weight"; "found some extra change lying on the
dresser"; "yet another book on heraldry might be
thought redundant"; "skills made redundant by
technological advance"; "sleeping in the spare room";
"supernumerary ornamentation"; "it was supererogatory
of her to gloat"; "delete superfluous (or unnecessary)
words"; "extra ribs as well as other supernumerary
internal parts"; "surplus cheese distributed to the
needy" [syn: excess, extra, spare, supererogatory,
superfluous, supernumerary, surplus]
2: use of more words than required to express an idea; "a wordy
gossipy account of a simple incident"; "a redundant text
crammed with amplifications of the obvious" [syn: wordy]
3: repetition of same sense in different words; "`a true fact'
and `a free gift' are pleonastic expressions"; "the phrase
`a beginner who has just started' is tautological"; "at
the risk of being redundant I return to my original
proposition"- J.B.Conant [syn: pleonastic, tautologic,
tautological]

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Redundant = Superfluous, unnecessary

HD output is a feature that is excess to requirements for the majority of EU customers, so I stand by the use of my word!

It means "superfluous cause it's there already, therefore there is no need for it", like repeating things over and over. Not "superfluous per se". Or at least that's how i use it.

You mean like redundant systems in an aircraft? There's three navigation systems, which is termed redundancy, as a failsafe, so if one goes wrong the others kick in. This is by my reckoning a misnomer, for the systems aren't redundant - they have a use as a failsafe. That seems to be the most common use of the word nowadays.

Any fool can go look up dictionary.com but MY source for the TRUE meaning of words is a 100 year old dictionary I've got before 'The Department for New Meanings' was invented to change the langauge around and confuse people...

Redundant = superfluous
Superfluous = More than is wanted; more than enough; unnecessary; useless

And the Reverend James Wood is not to be argued with on this matter

 

[London Geezer]

Any fool can go look up dictionary.com but MY source for the TRUE meaning of words is a 100 year old dictionary I've got before 'The Department for New Meanings' was invented to change the langauge around and confuse people...

Redundant = superfluous
Superfluous = More than is wanted; more than enough; unnecessary; useless

And the Reverend James Wood is not to be argued with on this matter

I don't speak 100yo English.

ANYWAY, back to topic.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

To be honest the leap from 576p (PAL) to 720p is not that great. Going to 1080p seems to be the way to go.

The leap is great...

At 576p you are seeing 720x576 =414720 pixels
At 720p you are seeing 1280x720=921600 pixels

So there is over 2x pixels on screen, I consider that a huge leap.

 

[wco81]

Over in the states, you can buy a 26-inch widescreen HDTV with tuner for about $700. There's a lot of selection under $2000 but those are using CRTs either for direct-view or rear projection.

Not as sexy as LCD or plasma but better image quality anyways.

You absolutely will notice the difference between say DVD and an HDTV source, even on such a small screen, if you sit back proportionately to the screen size.

1080p displays are suppose to come out in greater numbers the rest of this year and next year but they're mostly high-end models. One of the scandals is that some of these early models don't accept a 1080p signal. They upconvert 720p or 1080i only. Not a big deal since there are no 1080p sources. But it's apparently a case of display makers not spending a few extra dollars on silicone to support 1080p inputs on displays which will go for around $5k or more.

Looks like the consoles will be mostly doing 720p. So most of the displays should be fine with it.

I thought Sky was starting up some HDTV service over in Europe. The big American networks have been producing most of their programming in HDTV for a few years now. So when they're shown over there, the distributors will have the option to get HDTV versions if they choose.

The type of programming really pushing HDTV purchases is sports. So really, they just have to put together some HDTV production trucks over there and broadcast EPL and other football games in HDTV. That will spur purchases, just as the Superbowl does over here (January is one of the biggest months for TV sales over here).

 

[DemoCoder]

I'm no expert in this area, but from what I can tell most HD TVs seem to do 720p or 1080i, but not 1080p.

That is changing real soon.

To be honest the leap from 576p (PAL) to 720p is not that great. Going to 1080p seems to be the way to go.

Maybe because your trying to display HDTV 720p on a SDTV PDP 480p set? 720p has 2x as many pixels as 576p and is widescreen, 576p PAL is not. It also has 25% more verticle resolution. To me, it looks way better.

RPTV and LCD displays have too many flaws to usurp CRT. But CRT's are just too big. Even very high end CRT overhead projectors don't resolve more than 900 verticle lines.

And what flaws are those? Please don't bring up the old CRT contrast ratio and color saturation canard. RPTV and LCD displays are hitting 5000:1 - 10000:1 this year, far in excess of what is required to reproduce movie content. Emissive displays still have an advantage in ambient light, but CR and Saturation wise, most of the complaints about LCD and DLP have been fixed (CR, viewing angle, saturation, etc) Sony's Qualia SXRD technology blows away any PDP I've seen.

PDP's usually look better than LCDs/DLPs side-by-side in store room environments because of ambient light. This causes wash-out more severely and makes LCDs/DLPs look greyed out. But in a dark room, the LCD image looks IMHO more rock solid.

My own projector, the Sanyo PLV-70, while still years old, IMHO is more impressive than any plasma you can buy on the market today. Projected onto a high gain 120" screen @ WXGA resolution, it has twice the foot-lumens brightness of any commercially available PDP. See http://www.thebigpicturedvd.com/bigequipment17.shtml for an example of its ambient light performance.

Plasmas seem to have maxed at 760 horizontal lines.

No, there are 1080p plasmas coming out shortly. I saw a 106" Plasma at CES 2005.

High end 3 chip DLP projectors can do 1080p, but they cost $25,000 upwards.

TI's xHD3 chip will make single-chip 1080p DLP a reality.

A 480p image looks very good to me on a 42" screen and it seems like a hard job to eclispse this with a 720p image, when you factor in the cost to get there.

I own a Samsung 56" 4th-gen DLP and a 120" front-projection Sanyo PLV-70. Trust me, 720p looks alot better. But you are not going to notice the different by watching DVDs (which are 480p). You need real HD content. That means Satellite or broadcast, or using an HTPC to playback some of those WMV9 movies available, like Terminator 2 Extreme Edition.

Or am I completely wrong? Do you all have 1080p capable TVs and your all itching for a video console that can output games in this resolution?

I know a lot of you still use 480i NTSC displays and the jump to 720p must seem amazing, but in PAL land 576p is pretty damn impressive and 720p does not seem like a leap worth spending $2000 to achieve.

I think you are being a little narrow minded. You shelled out big for a 480p display, and don't seem to have much experience watching real HD content on a widescreen 720p display. There is a LARGE difference compared to a 480p PDP. Many people can't even tell the difference between 480i and 480p until they see them side by side with a progressive player. It needs to be SEEN and compared to know what you are missing.

Let's put it this way. I owned an HDTV for a year before I saw my first HDTV broadcast in 720p (sports event, NBC talk shows). It was like a VEIL was lifted from my eyes comapred to watching upscaled 480p DVDs. I thought Lord of the Rings looked great, and then I walked Jay Leno at 720p. Much much more crisp.

Even now a decent HD plasma is still $5000.

50" PDPs with 3000:1 CR and 720p are available for around $3000.

I recently had DLP projector installed where I work to drive a 7 foot screen. It is a PAL specific projector with the 576p DLP chip. The image quality is superb and about the maximum screen size you want to have with PAL resolution DVDs. Anything larger begins to reveal the limits of the format.

It's not the size, it's the viewing distance. To avoid visible pixels or screen door, you need to sit 2x-4x the screen's width from the screen, per THX suggestions. Also, having more resolution and a good scaler helps. But that 576p chip will look like crap compared to a proper widescreen DLP when watching widescreen DLPs or playing next-gen console games, or watching HDTV broadcasts, or soon, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray.

Europeans need to get over the fact that they are behind the curve and that HDTVs are so expensive for them. HDTV really took off in Japan and is exponentially growing in the US. The HD era is upon us, so drop the envy, and pressure your governments to do something about HD (maybe drop the VAT on HDTV or give tax breaks) or something so you can afford them better.