TSMC and Sony start joint effort for 22nm Fab in Japan [2021-11-09]

[Deleted member 11852]

The USA should really work with intel and qualcomm (both usa companies) and fund some cutting edge plants. Biden wants 50B in subsidies and I think that is a great thing. It sounds like Europe is also doing the same.

You seriously want the US taxpayer to underwrite Intel? Intel bet on conventional lithography when everybody else bet EUV, ergo Intel are now years behind in practical manufacturing and experience.

Intel gained the cutting edge of complex semiconductor manufacturing because of volume 80x86 demands. TSMC and Samsung surpassed them because they bet on the better technology and now have experience in a wider variety of manufacturing needs. You can't undo that - not with any amount of money.

 

[BRiT]

You seriously want the US taxpayer to underwrite Intel?

I agree your post.

I wouldn't go that far to pick Intel/Qualcomm, but if the US truly wants independence from other nations they will need to invest and improve into a lot of areas. It's more of a Politicians say one thing yet does nothing to back up their words. Their desire for independence is hollow.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I wouldn't go that far to pick Intel/Qualcomm, but if the US truly wants independence from other nations they will need to invest and improve into a lot of areas. It's more of a Politicians say one thing yet does nothing to back up their words. Their desire for independence is hollow.

I don't think any reasonable person who argue that the US political landscape is simply too unpredictable and this is the problem. Cutting-edge semiconductor manufacture is a big and long-term investment and what is advantageous today may not be tomorrow or in three years time. We've all seen the face-palm stupidity of US senator's questioning the tech industry about the dumbest things and any country whose political heads don't understand technology is simply too risky to invest in if your business is tech.

 

[eastmen]

I agree your post.

I wouldn't go that far to pick Intel/Qualcomm, but if the US truly wants independence from other nations they will need to invest and improve into a lot of areas. It's more of a Politicians say one thing yet does nothing to back up their words. Their desire for independence is hollow.

I certainly think we should also give some incentives to TSMC also. I think trump worked something out with them correct ? They are building plants here in the states.

I personally think we should require all companies to have 20% of what they sell in the united states be built in the USA top to bottom. Just look at all the shit with california's ports and how many ships are sitting waiting to unload. Also just think of all the pollution we can stop just from not shipping something half way across the world and in the united states a lot of our energy (and increasing every day) comes from much cleaner sources than china.

 

[pcchen]

Well, the reason why global trading happens is because some stuffs are more efficiently made in other countries. Agriculture products are obvious, but there are other examples too.
In theory, globalization should be able to reduce the gap between countries (e.g. wage levels should get closer once products and services are freely traded), but it can't happen overnight and there are other factors too.
Semiconductor fabs should be one of those not so sensitive to cost of labor, because their margins should be quite high. However, I still see many analysts view cost of labor as a reason why TSMC and Samsung have advantages over US companies (personally I don't believe that's true, but I'm no expert here).
I don't know how the cost structure of Intel's fabs compared to TSMC and Samsung's fabs. Most of Intel's fabs produce for in-house products and Intel are not saying how much they cost. However, Intel are able to maintain some sort of price competitiveness with AMD even with more than half of their fabs in the US (while AMD uses TSMC or Samsung's fabs), so their cost can't be too bad.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I certainly think we should also give some incentives to TSMC also. I think trump worked something out with them correct ? They are building plants here in the states.

If you look at where TSMC have plants in the US, they are states where there are tax incentives for technical industries so this is already happening.

I personally think we should require all companies to have 20% of what they sell in the united states be built in the USA top to bottom.

Whilst very large engineering projects can be designed to be completed like this - although as the recent collapsed Australian-French submarine deal has shown - not always successfully, it's generally not something that works well in smaller items. Particularly not tech where it's rarely feasibly to build 20% of a device anywhere other than when and where it's first assembled. With the exception of Corning's glass and software, what other material items are produced/created in the US that could be included in high-tech devices without driving the costs up?

Like a lot of counties, the UK and many parts of Europe included, the economies have adapted over the past 4-5 decades to make big manufacture undesirable/uneconomical. It is literally cheaper to manufacture 100 millions devices half-way around the world and ship them over the ocean than it would be to manufacture those devices in your own country.

 

[Inuhanyou]

America has become a service based hellhole due to corporate corruption influencing US government. Not just related to globalization but how the entire creation economy is motivated by easy profit first and foremost.

It won't change for real unless that is fixed and good luck with that with how effed we are in mindset

 

[Silent_Buddha]

...motivated by easy profit first and foremost.

Which is the motivation for 90% of the world's population including small businesses as well as large corporations.

I mean, how many people do you know personally that wants to make a living cleaning sewers, raising livestock, working in waste management, mining, farming, etc.?

It's certainly not corporations in the past 3+ decades in the US telling people to work easier, it's the government that's been pushing people towards service based jobs by insisting that everyone needs to go to college even if they aren't a person that is suited to the service industry. There's been a huge push by the elite and government in the US to get people to NOT want to work manual labor even if it's something they would enjoy.

I had a rare, but entirely refreshing experience where one of my friends worked his arse off to get a Psychology and Social Sciences degree. Got into the work force as a psychologist hoping to "change the world" and help disadvantaged people get over their substance abuse problems. 4 years later he went to a vocational school to learn welding because he was sick of it and now he enjoys working as a welder so much more.

Regards,
SB

 

[Panino Manino]

And this isn't unfounded, just look at Hong Kong.

Looked at what exactly? People liking it or not Hong Kong belongs to China.
And about Taiwan, China have all rights to start a fight with Taiwan while their government there still insist that they are the "real" China. There's a lot of strong bias against China in regards to Taiwan, these "aerospace invasions" that it's frequently in the news is a great example of this. No mainstream news outlet, not a single one, cares to give the detail (besides Taiwan's position as the legitimate China) about what Taiwan considers their "Air Defense Identification Zone" and where exactly those planes are flying. Just give it a try and do a search. Just got to the official Ministry of Defense of Taiwan on Twitter where they always share the maps: MoNDefense
I also dislike authoritarian governments but there's a bit of exaggeration regarding China being "imperialistic" and "aggressive". Isn't funny when they are always being "aggressive" inside their own territory while the "peace loving countries" are always attacking and bombing country on the other side of the globe.


Anyway, if those leading edge fabs are damaged... I simply don't care, I don't think the world would lose something of true value.
Even if they not, would be a good thing for pushing other countries to hosting their own fabs instead of being so dependent of just a single player.

 

[novcze]

if we go back to the topic, according to this https://www.techpowerup.com/287838/tsmc-confirmed-to-build-new-fab-in-japan-together-with-sony it will be 22 and 28 nm nodes, so no PS5 chips

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Looked at what exactly? People liking it or not Hong Kong belongs to China.

Try following the thread of comments - here they are:

Many people of Taiwanese nationality increasingly are not only distrustful of China, but there is growing hatred and fear of mainland China. There is a very real possibility that if China were to invade, the people would attempt to flee and key factories and fabs would be destroyed rather than allow those assets to fall into China's hands.

And this isn't unfounded, just look at Hong Kong.

If you're uncertain about what I'm referring to, it is China's actions in the context of the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration, particularly the principle of "one country, two systems". Following the events of last year and the implementation of the National Security Law in July, it sure doesn't feel like two systems. It looks like one system. People's freedom's removed, people's right to relocate prevented.

Any remote faith that China may act in good faith and treat Taiwan differently evaporated last year watching how Beijing treated the people of Hong Kong.

 

[pcchen]

And about Taiwan, China have all rights to start a fight with Taiwan while their government there still insist that they are the "real" China.

It might be the case 50 years ago, but it's no longer the case for quite some time. Actually China "requires" Taiwanese government not to attempt to change either the name, the flag, or constitution of the country ("Republic of China") as these actions are considered by them as "Taiwan independence."
China simply just want the land. The CCP already sold the idea of "Taiwan being the inseparable part of China" to their people too much, it's no longer possible to back off. Really, I believe if China says "we don't care about Taiwan anymore and you are free to do anything you like" Taiwan will "declare independence" next day and practically no one in Taiwan would object.

 

[JPT]

if we go back to the topic, according to this https://www.techpowerup.com/287838/tsmc-confirmed-to-build-new-fab-in-japan-together-with-sony it will be 22 and 28 nm nodes, so no PS5 chips

Which sounds logical because there is more pressure on the stuff above 16nm than below it. Broadcom wifi chips which basically is my bread and butter, are 28nm and those got delayed by 12-18 months. Due to TSMC upping the price from October 1st, the fallout was that Broadcom delayed all deliveries for orders already accepted, if you want something before 2023, you have to pay the new prices, which was bumped as much as 30% (again) in some instances.
So if Broadcom can not get 28nm "cheap" fab time from TSMC, then Sony is probably in the same spot.
Funny thing, Mediatek, have guaranteed production from TSMC.....

As for Taiwan, the people I know there, are for the most not pro or con, but they do not "feel" chinese, they correct me when I have called them chinese, they say they are taiwanese.
Its not that they are super happy with ROC, but its better than PROC it seems.
I do not poke much into this, it comes up sometimes when I ask about the history of Taiwan etc. They are extremely pro Japan.

 

[SmooTh]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458015762019491841

The factory will be built at a site next to Sony's plant in Kikuyo-cho, Kumamoto Prefecture, and will produce semiconductors using 22- to 28-nanometer chip technology.

 

[JPT]

What parts in todays consoles or gpus need 22 to 28 nm chips? I assume this is for other devices like cameras etc

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yep. Not console APUs or related to PS sadly.

 

[pharma]

Japan with USA want to produce cutting-edge 2-nm chips as soon as 2025

Japan and the US have signed a bilateral chip technology partnership. This could end up as a joint venture between Japanese and US firms, or a wholly Japanese-owned setup. Semiconductors could be used...

www.guru3d.com

Japan and the US have signed a bilateral chip technology partnership. This could end up as a joint venture between Japanese and US firms, or a wholly Japanese-owned setup. Semiconductors could be used for everything from quantum computers to smartphones.
...
Japanese and U.S. businesses could jointly establish a new company, or Japanese corporations could set up a new manufacturing hub. Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry will partially subsidize the cost of research and development as well as capital expenditures.

Joint research will start this summer at the earliest, and a research and mass production center will be formed between fiscal 2025 and fiscal 2027.

TSMC, the world's largest contract chip manufacturer, is building a chip fab in Japan's Kumamoto Prefecture, but the plant will only produce less-advanced semiconductors scaled from 10nm to the 20nm range.

Smaller semiconductors lead to miniaturization and improved performance of devices. The 2-nm chips will be used in products such as quantum computers, data centers and cutting-edge smartphones. Those chips also reduce power consumption, shrinking carbon footprints.
...
IBM, which is strong in 2-nm R&D, developed a prototype last year. Fellow U.S. company Intel also is proceeding with R&D on the 2-nm process.

In Japan, a research lab in Tsukuba city run by the National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology is hosting a collaboration to develop manufacturing technology for advanced semiconductor lines, including those for 2-nm processes. Chipmaking equipment makers like Tokyo Electron and Canon are taking part in the collective, along with IBM, Intel and TSMC.