TSMC and Sony start joint effort for 22nm Fab in Japan [2021-11-09]

BoardBonobo

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TSMC and Sony may be joining forces to build a new chip fab in Japan, probably as a safe haven against Chinese occupation. The Japanese government are said to be chipping in on costs. The fab will be up and running by 2024 and should go some way toward alleviating the current chip shortage and, of course, Sonys own products like the PS5

Source
 
Quite aggressive timeline.

Genuine fear of Chinese takeover (China's aggression combined with uncertainty about how the US' current leadership would respond if the island were invaded) can be a pretty big motivator to try to get things done sooner rather than later. Especially after seeing how China has treated Hong Kong as well as Xi's increasing hostility towards private enterprise.

Regards,
SB
 
Taiwan seems to be on a path of certain war dispute, which is probably the biggest reason why China has been steadily inflating their military.
And if that happens, the future of top-end process ICs will be very uncertain.


Regardless, the fabs mentioned in the article seem to be only for image sensors and dedicated image processors for cameras and smartphones. They're not going to make 5nm GPUs, CPUs and SoCs in those fabs anytime soon.
 
For everybody commenting about China, TSMC already has fabs in Singapore and the US. They are often operated under wholly-owned subsidiary names like WaferTech is their operation in Washington State. They are also planning a 5nm fab in Arizona. And plenty more in China.

It makes sense of companies who supply worldwide to be able to supply from worldwide. If countries are going to offer to underwrite some of those costs, so much the better.

Sony have been in and out of the fab business a few times over the four three-to-four decades. But they must use a lot of ICs in their thousands of products so maybe there is a real demand, and no doubt they want better processes for their CCD sensor business.
 
For everybody commenting about China, TSMC already has fabs in Singapore and the US. They are often operated under wholly-owned subsidiary names like WaferTech is their operation in Washington State. They are also planning a 5nm fab in Arizona. And plenty more in China.
The concern is with the fabs that use state-of-the-art processes. According to this, Fab 18 and Fab 20 are where these processes are used, and they're both in Taiwan. There is one 5nm fab in the US but it has a much lower production capacity than the one in Taiwan (1/6th of the production).
TSMC's fabs in China are probably just using super old processes. No multinational corporation in their right mind would put their top-end process in China because the government can seize it at any time, or it can go "rogue" at any time (like ARM China).



TSMC has procedures for sabotaging its plant if China invades.
We all hope they do because the CCP seizing almost all 5nm and lower processes would make us all hostages to them, but even in the event of an impending destruction of the plant we'd be looking at almost all of us going back to 16FF solutions at this point, with all of Samsung's output being hobbled by Apple.
 
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I am not saying China will not invade Taiwan as they lately seem unpredictable and his leader might want to use the war as a political tool (as often in wars). But China also depend of TSMC made in Taiwan and of global economic health. I am not sure invading the country possibly leading to the plants destruction and inevitable economic unrest would be good for them economically (it would be good for their own leaders for sure).

Also most Taiwan success is thanks to smart and educated people working there and if China invades Taiwan you can be sure almost everybody will leave the country to Japan, USA etc to continue working there on the smaller nodes in a western country. So if the tech is not completely destroyed by TSMC and Taiwan counter measures they could steal the current tech but the ability to make smaller nodes will be greatly impended.
 
I am not saying China will not invade Taiwan as they lately seem unpredictable and his leader might want to use the war as a political tool (as often in wars). But China also depend of TSMC made in Taiwan and of global economic health. I am not sure invading the country possibly leading to the plants destruction and inevitable economic unrest would be good for them economically (it would be good for their own leaders for sure).

China is probably trying to infiltrate the political class, then they'll cheat the elections and when people rise up in protests they'll send in hordes of triad goons and undercover military to beat up, kidnap and murder the protestors. What they did in Hong Kong, basically.

I think what Taiwan is saying is they won't let it go this far, and they will drive instigators by force.
 
The concern is with the fabs that use state-of-the-art processes. According to this, Fab 18 and Fab 20 are where these processes are used, and they're both in Taiwan. There is one 5nm fab in the US but it has a much lower production capacity than the one in Taiwan (1/6th of the production).

Sure, but what does that have to do with China? TSMC buy most of their fab equipment from Applied Materials Inc.. They design very little of the interesting tech they use, that is not their expertise.
 
Sure, but what does that have to do with China?

If China invades Taiwan, what do you think will happen to the plants that are located in Taiwan - the ones that are supplying the majority of the world's ICs made on state-of-the-art processes?
 
If China invades Taiwan, what do you think will happen to the plants that are located in Taiwan - the ones that are supplying the majority of the world's ICs made on state-of-the-art processes?
The plants that are supply massive amounts of chips to Chinese companies like Foxconn, Jabil and Celestica?

Nothing. Nothing at all. Why destroy a profitable operation? The chips themselves have no strategic value, only economic.
 
Sure, but what does that have to do with China? TSMC buy most of their fab equipment from Applied Materials Inc.. They design very little of the interesting tech they use, that is not their expertise.

94% of TSMC production capacity is located in Taiwan according to this article.

TSMC: Global scale, geographic concentration. The problem with chip-making in Taiwan - The Economic Times (indiatimes.com)

And the China/Taiwan's tension creates issues because a huge chunk of the world's capacity especially its cutting edge chip production is in an area that has at least a small chance of becoming a war zone in the future.

Most countries recognize this and is the reason some are willing to subsidize TSMC production capacity growth outside of Taiwan.
 
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Why destroy a profitable operation? The chips themselves have no strategic value, only economic.

Many people of Taiwanese nationality increasingly are not only distrustful of China, but there is growing hatred and fear of mainland China.

There is a very real possibility that if China were to invade, the people would attempt to flee and key factories and fabs would be destroyed rather than allow those assets to fall into China's hands.

Being of Taiwanese descent myself (I no longer consider myself as being of Chinese descent), I'm saddened by how things are going. Prior to Xi Jinping reversing course on China and moving the country away from a more open China, tensions between the countries was at an all time low and there was a very real possibility of peaceful reunification between the two countries. Prior to that point most people in Taiwan viewed China in a positive light. But distrust started flaring up again as Xi moved the country away from openess and more towards closed minded authoritarianism culminating with what's been happening in Hong Kong which pushed most people in Taiwan to view the mainland Chinese government with fear, distrust and hatred.

Bleh, too much info, probably, I could go on and on. It's distressing and stressful talking to my relatives in Taiwan who feel that the US is their only hope but at the same time aren't sure they can trust the US due to President Biden's handling of Afganistan.

Also, economic value is a key part of strategic value. If you have no economic power you have limited ability to wage war. That's why sanctions are used to try to limit the power and influence of belligerent countries. More economic power means the potential for more military power.

The fall of the USSR is a key example of military power being tied to economic power.

Regards,
SB
 
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94% of TSMC production capacity is located in Taiwan according to this article.
I believe that's correct. It takes TSMC about four years to get a new plant up and running so the fact that they have so many plants due to start in 2022 and 2023 shows they recognised this and started this geographic expansion a few years back.

Many people of Taiwanese nationality increasingly are not only distrustful of China, but there is growing hatred and fear of mainland China.

And this isn't unfounded, just look at Hong Kong.

But my point is, why would China invade Taiwan to destroy their successful economy? China is deeply eroding a lot of what made Hong Kong unique, certainly people's freedoms, but it was never stupid enough to impact their economy because it is China's economy also. The same would be true of Taiwan. China want Taiwan under Beijing's rule but Beijing understand what makes a good economy because the country has benefited from this. A strong economy generates money which can be used to invest and influence foreign agenda which the West was slow to recognise.

The fall of the USSR is a key example of military power being tied to economic power.

Exactly.
 
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https://www.reuters.com/technology/...hip-factories-talks-europe-falter-2021-05-14/

TSMC announced last year that it would invest $10 billion to $12 billion to build a chip factory in Phoenix.

Reuters this month reported that the previously disclosed factory could be the first of up to six planned plants at the site. Now, company officials are debating whether the next plant should be a more advanced facility that can make chips with so-called 3-nanometer chipmaking technology compared to the slower, less-efficient 5-nanometer technology used for the first factory.

The USA should really work with intel and qualcomm (both usa companies) and fund some cutting edge plants. Biden wants 50B in subsidies and I think that is a great thing. It sounds like Europe is also doing the same.
 
But my point is, why would China invade Taiwan to destroy their successful economy? China is deeply eroding a lot of what made Hong Kong unique, certainly people's freedoms, but it was never stupid enough to impact their economy because it is China's economy also. The same would be true of Taiwan. China want Taiwan under Beijing's rule but Beijing understand what makes a good economy because the country has benefited from this. A strong economy generates money which can be used to invest and influence foreign agenda which the West was slow to recognise.

That's the thing. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

There's been a decades long purge within the Communist Party in China. Anyone with any power who could challenge Xi Jinping have been purged from the party. So what's left are just sycophants who tell Xi what he wants to hear. And what he wants to hear is that he's greatest leader that China and the world has ever seen.

Xi has a grand vision that he's destined to reunify China and by extension the world (once they realize how great he is). It's why all the rhetoric coming out of mainland China is about how they are the great and peaceful nation that only does things lawfully. It's all the other countries in the world that are not only war mongers but unlawfully attempt to limit China's right to what they believe is theirs. It's why they try to provoke either the US or Taiwan military forces to fire on their incursions into Taiwan's Airspace. If some pilot foolishly fires on them, then China will feel they are in the right and that any force is justified since they were fired on first.

He must control the dialog around his enshrinement as the greatest leader China has ever had. So to that end, anything that he can't control is being erased. Anything that he doesn't like is being erased. Just look at how some of China's most popular actors, actresses, singers, etc. are slowing being erased from existence. The most recent one is Zhao Wei. It's almost impossible to see any of her movies or find her anywhere on the net in China anymore.

That's why the crackdown in Hong Kong has been so swift and vicious, especially when he saw that no country in the world would intervene in the face of Chinese might ... and right. It's why the laws against "sedition" are crafted in such a way that any violation anywhere in the world can lead to prosecution and jailing in China as soon as an individual enters China. If you've been paying attention to what's happening as much as I have, it's all slash and burn in order to silence anything that would paint Xi Jinping in an unfavorable light.

Crackdowns on teachers that don't teach what Xi wants taught in a way that he wants it taught. Crackdowns on private businesses that don't operate how he wants them to operate. Urging the people to work for the good of the country and not for the good of themselves. A proper Chinese man should be manly and rugged and not effeminate. Male actors and singers that don't match his vision of "maleness" are also slowly being erased in China.

Taking over Taiwan isn't about bolstering China's economic power, that would just be a bonus. It's all about Xi Jinping's road towards reunifying China and becoming the greatest leader that China and the world has ever seen. Should that happen, it's quite probable that the Korean Peninsula would be next as that was once part of China as well. And Japan likely soon after that. There's been increasing crackdowns in China against people that visit Japanese monuments, for instance. Which is a shame as relations between the countries had been warming prior to Xi Jinping purging the ranks of opposition.

Bleh. Hopefully that's at least somewhat understandable. I obviously get very emotional when thinking about it because I have so many relatives in Taiwan and Japan.

Regards,
SB
 
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