http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/06/hybrid_minivan.php
epic
Id like to know one thing, where the fck are the detroit auto makers?
epic
Toyota Launches New Hybrid Estima Minivan in Japan
- Thread starter epicstruggle
- Start date
Your location brings an interesting question. Have german automakers settled on diesel as the fuel choice for their higher MPG/KPL engines for the remainder of the decade?_xxx_ said:
epic
Diesel is here to stay in Europe. The US market is a no-go for diesel, so that's where it'll be sold primarily, as well as in Japan. Maybe the hybrids will catch up in the EU one day, but I don't really see it coming this decade since diesel is quite a bit cheaper than gas here, and it still beats the shite out of hybrids considering consumption/power/economic viability.
Sorry for sounding like such a nag, but a 150HP gas engine AND 155.000W electric motors don't sound too treehuggy to me. The point of a hybrid was originally a small conventional engine to reduce fuel consumption/weight. This goal seems to have been lost now, at least in this particular model of car.epicstruggle said:
They could be watercooled, just like any conventional piston car engine (apart from some obsolete german boxer models, haha)... 
47 MPG. Isn't that the goal?Guden Oden said:
Guden Oden said:They could be watercooled, just like any conventional piston car engine (apart from some obsolete german boxer models, haha)...
The bigger problem is the energy. To keep it running, you'd need batteries as big as the whole car.
There already are water cooled generators in many engines, so the cooling wouldn't be a huge problem technically.
I wonder what the MPG would be at serious speeds. I just drove back from Utah to Vegas (120 miles) on I-15, whose speed limit is 75 mph, but most cars were doing 90 mph. I drove a Toyota Sienna minivan (rental) which is essentially the non-hybrid Estima. It reported my MPG as 20 for most of the trip, and fluctuated only mildly between speeds of 70mph-95mph. I think I averaged 90mph most of the way. (for Europeans who have no concept of the Southwest, try to imagine a desert between gorgeous canyons, with a well kept road streching straight as far as the eye can see, hardly any exits/entries, not much traffic, and no danger of livestock crossing the road == SPEED. The only danger is crosswinds really. I did even better in Death Valley, averaging 100mph on some portions)
Seems to me that in the case of highway driving, the electric motor and regenerative braking don't do jack. Hybrids are really optimized for short-distance or stop-and-go traffic.
In my opinion, the biggest enemy of fuel economy for high-speed highway driving is drag.
Seems to me that in the case of highway driving, the electric motor and regenerative braking don't do jack. Hybrids are really optimized for short-distance or stop-and-go traffic.
In my opinion, the biggest enemy of fuel economy for high-speed highway driving is drag.
What's that in any real unit of measurement?RussSchultz said:
So 47...whatever...is the final destination of any vehicle engineering endeavor? You reach 47, that's as good as you ever need to get for all time? Somehow, that seems just a tad lazy to me.
Does a hybrid really NEED a 150HP engine anyway? Seems a bit like wanting to look like a treehugger, but still having the ability to drive with a lead foot. Am I right in assuming it's not even a turbocharged engine, but rather a more inefficient naturally aspirated unit?
_xxx_ said:
Yea well, that would present a certain problem I guess. I assume the high power rating is to allow for reasonably quick accelerations and such.It would be much more interesting I think if hybrid cars actually dumped the mechanical transmission components and relied exclusively on electrical propulsion. After all, it is a well-known fact that piston engines run most efficiently at a constant RPM, so the engine and attached generator could be tuned for that purpose. Make it a (bio)diesel engine on top of it all as well for additional benefits. And build the darned thing out of aluminium instead of heavy steel. Make all lights semiconductors instead of incandescent/discharge bulbs for even more savings. I don't understand why manufacturers aren't doing this already. Would save car owners the hassle of having to replace bulbs every couple years. Well, except for LED headlights perhaps, as I hear those still have fairly limited lifespans, though perhaps that is compared to more traditional, less powerful LEDs.
Hybrid cars are interesting, but they're not 'there' yet. As long as they still run on fossil fuels - and particulary, lug around on a large, heavy and powerful conventional powerplant in addition to batteries and electric motors - they'll never really fulfil their full potential.
Is it to much to ask that hybrids be attracttive? The Prius, Insight, this ugly thing etc. Obviously there is the Accord, Civic, RX400h. But these from the ground up hybrids scream "hybrid". I think the Prius sales would have been much higher had it been a more attractive car.
Are there any hybrid diesels sold in the U.S.?
Are there any hybrid diesels sold in the U.S.?
50% over the current crop?Guden Oden said:
Uuuh, no. Its a significant improvement over what's currently out there.
Hybrid or not is not the question. Yes, a 7 person minivan needs 150HP.
Its also a well known fact that the mechanical->electrical->mechanical energy tranform has losses.
Well, given that they're 'hybrids', if you take away the "large, heavy and power conventional powerplant", then they'll cease being hybrids.
In Europe, the normal ones start out around 100 BHP. Although the big ones are around 150 BHP as well. A Renault Espace for example has between 120 and 173 BHP. But for a hybrid, some of that power is used to accelerate the heavy batteries, the electric motors and the additional transmission components.RussSchultz said:
Yes, but when you put the motors in the wheels, you can get rid of the gearbox, axles, differentials etc. While you can still use a conventional powerplant. Which makes a lot more sense than just slapping a few electric motors, batteries and some additional electronics on a car with a regular layout.Well, given that they're 'hybrids', if you take away the "large, heavy and power conventional powerplant", then they'll cease being hybrids.
But if you just look at efficiency, at the moment diesel engines are hard to beat. We have to wait for a better energy source for electric propulsion to become valid.
50% more than "rotten" isn't really all that awesome, but it's a fair improvement I'll give you that.RussSchultz said:
NEEDS 150HP, or simply becomes more 'fun' to drive? There are lots of Euro vans that don't have 150HP engines.
Besides, will the van be seating 7 people ALL the time?
Don't think so. Besides, with a full load, you probably won't be participating in any formula one races, so it's entirely possible a smaller engine would have worked just fine as well.Meanwhile, the larger cylinder volume engine will always be squandering fuel unneccessarily even when not neccessary (read: when the van isn't seating seven friggin people) simply to maintain the required air:fuel ratio to get a clean burn...
And mechanical transmissions do not? Piston engines running at non-optimal RPMs/loads do not? What about lugging around on a gearbox, clutch, differential and drive shafts unneccessarily even when running on electricity, does that not create losses? Wheel hub motors could do away with all of that.
From what I've read, the transmission of a car steals at LEAST 10% of the power put out on the crankshaft and not seldom 5+ % more. That's not counting the uneven torque curve across the engine's RPM range or the weight of the transmission components. Trying to estimate the impact of that isn't really feasible, but I'd suspect a mechanical->electrical drive won't be all that rotten in comparison when all parameters are factored in. It'd save space too I might add!
The powerplant doesn't have to be mechanically connected to the wheels for the car to be a hybrid you know.Well, given that they're 'hybrids', if you take away the "large, heavy and power conventional powerplant", then they'll cease being hybrids.
ShootMyMonkey
Veteran
Number one -- Measuring engine horsepower in the US is usually done without a lot of the extra components tied to the engine (e.g. power steering pump, AC compressor). That changed recently, which is why a lot of '06 and '07 vehicles have lower HP ratings than they might have had before. Nonetheless 130-140 HP at the flywheel is pretty close to 100 BHP at the wheels.
Number two -- vehicle size classes in the US are about a notch and a half larger than in EU. What Europe calls a "mid-size" vehicle would be square in the middle of what the US calls a "compact" vehicle. What the US calls a "minivan" is probably close to a bus by European standards.
That's part of what greatly sucks about autos sold in the US. The emissions standards are innately and emphatically WRONG. The US measures emissions by fractional composition of a unit of exhaust volume. This greatly skews the impact of diesels because it doesn't take into account that the quantity of exhaust volume per mile is lower.
The main thing about diesels is the fact that you get your power in the lower rpm range, so it also doesn't need a high-spec engine as long as the car is destined to be a daily driver. A 130 hp diesel will totally outclass the typical 220 hp V6 gas engine in typical driving situations because the rpms will rarely climb over 2500 rpm.
A small diesel powertrain running on some blend of synthetic and biodiesel with urea injection will have better emissions and better performance in the vast majority of cases than any non-hybrid vehicle sold in the US. The EPA is not fond of urea injection because they believe Americans are too absent-minded and stupid to replace both that and fuel regularly (which I can agree with).