The scalability and evolution of game engines *spawn*

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by ultragpu, Jul 7, 2020.

  1. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    Curious to see creation kit going. I think they’ve put so much focus on gameplay side of things and let graphics fall behind. Which is fine, visuals aren’t actually needed for long term play, gameplay is.

    It’s one of few games I know where you can hot drop a whole bunch of stuff into the game at run time and that matters. Run time virtual texturing hits hardware limits faster than streaming virtual textures for instance.
    Not to mention just being able to overload the world with stuff.

    for reference the players can add and delete world items at run time. Shadows will be added etc Lighting, Time of Day.



    It may not be a looker, but it’s pretty dynamic. Probably amongst the most dynamic AAA titles I can think of. Some people compare it to 360 lighting, and yea you’d be right; because everyone else has been baking their GI, and you can’t here. You need real time GI and lighting and shadows. Compute intensive stuff.

    Imo ray tracing will solve so much for them, it should allow them to compete In next gen.
     
    #61 iroboto, Jul 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
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  2. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    I don't think many people appreciate how complicated this is. I've seen people argue, or ask, does it need to do that and the answer is no, you could probably fudge this any one of number of ways but Bethesda don't want to fudge it and their engine is crazily ambitious in ways the average person does not understand and that has implications for the whole engine stack.

    They've prioritised immersive world over graphics for quite a few years so it boggles my mind that folks don't seem to realise that. Graphics is not their priority.
     
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  3. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    Yup. Well ray tracing will solve that however. Power will be heavy but I think we’re going to see RT come in a big way for them for next gen. That will make all of this sing. They can toss resolution to do it.

    which is great. This is what I love about RT. I called it the equalizer between studios, because studios with insanely high production budgets can’t be caught. But you can’t get better than RT, so... people can now have the best at the expense of asking for power.
     
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  4. eloyc

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    I guess you may be right IF they use RT just for lighting and shadows. I'm not sure next-gen machines are able to use RTRT for both lighting and reflections, on top of a very complex scene full of NPCs in an open world... I wish I am wrong, though.

    But honestly, yeah, even though I think RT reflections are cool, if we have to choose instead of having it all, I choose proper lighting. Fake reflections can be quite decent. Bad/not dynamic lighting... not so much.
     
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  5. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    I don't know about not seeing it. I think the primary issue is that design is seemingly carrying heavy baggage that could be much improved. We have Fortnite StW and Conan running on Unreal Engine that both support similar world detail and user manipulation, I think (I don't know how persistent they are and when stuff resets).

    The main problem with Bethesda titles are the bugs and performance. The more complex your engine, the more numerous the interactions and bugs. If you patch a fix for a bug that's found, you may miss a more serious underlying design issue. Then you patch a few more bugs. Then you find your hull is all patches and no original wood. The issues around Fallout 76 smell to me like legacy system pushed past their usefulness, and I am confident a ground-up engine designed for modern systems with fast IO would be worlds apart in performance and stability. I also question whether the design choices for an object-oriented world model will adapt well to RTRT and future lighting. And then designing for good network play, you are better off designing that in from the beginning rather than adding it on top of an engine.

    Basically, ideas have completely changed since Elder Scrolls began. Entity based development instead of object oriented design is 10x - 100x faster, but you have to design for it. The future of rendering isn't so much meshes and objects but spaces and optimising for spatial representations. An optimal open-world game is going to need the most efficient database backend and a completely different renderer to what we're used to, and the chances are these are so intertwined in Creation Engine they can't be retro-fitted in.

    Fallout 76 launched as a buggy mess missing key features of the engine like NPCs, and it's taken significant time just to get it to where it should have been at launch. That is, the engine support Radiant AI and has for years, yet it's not present in FO '76. Why? Because the adaptations presumably broke it. I think FO '76 points to the devs wrestling with the engine, and if the same period had been spent building something new, the game may have taken longer to release but it'd work better and be on a far stronger footing for new games over the next 10+ years. In essence, I think it's typical business decisions to keep the old thing working than update to new and improved.
     
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  6. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    RTRT isn't going to be fast enough for that, and to get the most from it, you'll want spatial representations that can be heavily optimised. Games built from the ground up for RTRT will likely look a half-gen above engines where RTRT is added on top, by my guess.
     
  7. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
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    I think it depends on how much rebuilding you can do. If you opt to support traditional lighting models as well as RT models I would agree.

    I think if you opt to only support RT then you could be better optimized.
    But I agree there probably isn’t enough power to do everything, but there should be enough to get them to a much better place than they are now.
     
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