The Order: 1886

[chris1515]

I've not read any any downgrade discussion. I guess it's more secluded that the Lollapalooza that was the WATCH_DOGS discussion. As I've noted many times on these forums, I feel like I'm the only person interested in The Order 1886 for it's gameplay rather than it's graphics

I am interested and I read some good impression about the game on GAF.

 

[DieH@rd]

 

[Billy Idol]

Cooool!! RADs GOW games were very good games.

I read very good impressions...I still try to avoid it to not getting spoiled!

Only one week away!!! Come on! I want it noooow!

 

[L. Scofield]

You're still saying "direction." So which is it? Doesn't take direction into account? Has a small capsule draw distance? Both?

Obviously it's struck you as problematic, do you have an example of somewhere where TO1886's dynamic object AO seems clearly unnatural so we can pick this apart?

It didn't struck me as a problem hence why I suggested adding it to the list of things make a game look more like CGI. In other words, it looks good.

But yes, they occlusion is limited to the radius of the capsules, there's no projection based on lighting direction like in TLoU.

 

[HTupolev]

But yes, they occlusion is limited to the radius of the capsules

The capsules are direct approximations of the dynamic objects, so restricting AO to within their radii would (aside from imprecision) restrict AO to existing inside of the dynamic objects. That doesn't make much sense, and according to RAD's slides isn't what's happening:

 

[L. Scofield]

The ending cutscene has already been leaked so be careful with the videos you watch these days.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The capsules are direct approximations of the dynamic objects, so restricting AO to within their radii would (aside from imprecision) restrict AO to existing inside of the dynamic objects. That doesn't make much sense, and according to RAD's slides isn't what's happening:

The AO is approximated as capsules. Those capsules have a certain radius. AO is limited to that radius regardless of the lighting in the scene.

The Last of Us, on the other hand is a lower quality version of this:

AO is a hack invented to simulate soft shadows in a perfect light environment. That's what The Order is doing. The Last of Us goes a step further by actually taking into account the imperfect light environment the characters are currently in.

 

[HTupolev]

The Last of Us, on the other hand is a lower quality version of this:

Sort of. It was inspired by that work, although the actual implementation is designed around TLoU's ambient+direction lightmap, and differs substantially from the use of spherical harmonics; hemispherical capsule coverage for the ambient component, cone capsule coverage for the directional.

At any rate...

The AO is approximated as capsules. Those capsules have a certain radius. AO is limited to that radius regardless of the lighting in the scene.

...As I noted above, according to RAD's own presentation, the capsules are positioned and sized using basically the same approach as those in TLoU, which means that just casting AO within their radius would imply that they don't actually cast AO on anything.
Unless you're referring to a second radius that you've inferred outside of the context of RAD's GDC presentation.

What's your source on what The Order is doing? Is there video that clearly demonstrates that the AO isn't directionally aware? I'm curious because the game has the lightmapping methods and low-frequency scene representation to do it, and it seems like it has exactly the sort of visual makeup where you'd want to do it.

 

[ultragpu]

Gonna watch Wolfman 2010, Underworld series and From Hell BluRays in leading up to the 20th! A few snippets that I saw from the YT walkthrough have further cemented how CGI like this game can look, I have a feeling you may wanna replay the game a few times just to properly soak in all the details especially with a rumored post launch Photomode.

 

[Karamazov]

watched some playthrough videos, one was 16min long and 95% cutscenes, and in another i saw

Spoiler

a penis !

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Curiosity led me to search on Twitch and saw a inute or so of the game. The atmosphere was so thick and enveloping, it felt like a RE=Silent Hill game at that moment. I think its shaping up to be the KZ2 of the ps4 ! If the gameplay is as engaging as the atmosphere then this might become the game you just can't sell away as you keep getting reminded of each of the areas and you want to replay the sections over and over.

Hoping the gameplay is super engaging too, i don't mind slow gameplay at all. If it is replayable and feels unique, like kZ2 was and if the atmosphere doesn't fell "static" or baked, then I might spend the money reserved for BloodBorne on this !

 

[MrFox]

Reviews are out Wednesday. Game is out Friday.

 

[L. Scofield]

Sort of. It was inspired by that work, although the actual implementation is designed around TLoU's ambient+direction lightmap, and differs substantially from the use of spherical harmonics; hemispherical capsule coverage for the ambient component, cone capsule coverage for the directional.

At any rate...

...As I noted above, according to RAD's own presentation, the capsules are positioned and sized using basically the same approach as those in TLoU, which means that just casting AO within their radius would imply that they don't actually cast AO on anything.
Unless you're referring to a second radius that you've inferred outside of the context of RAD's GDC presentation.

What's your source on what The Order is doing? Is there video that clearly demonstrates that the AO isn't directionally aware? I'm curious because the game has the lightmapping methods and low-frequency scene representation to do it, and it seems like it has exactly the sort of visual makeup where you'd want to do it.

You'd understand better if you read the papers about the games mentioned on RAD's presentation.

"This was inspired by Stephen Hill’s presentation on Splinter Cell: Conviction"
http://www.selfshadow.com/talks/rwc_gdc2010_v1.pdf

"and is also similar to what Naughty Dog recently presented for the Last of Us"
http://miciwan.com/SIGGRAPH2013/Lighting Technology of The Last Of Us.pdf

"The problem is that to get long shadows, you need a high SH order. 2nd order SH
works fine for AO – Stephen Hill did something similar in Splinter Cell Conviction – but
for shadows it’s just not enough."

RAD's presentation also gives a source for their specific implementation:

http://www.iquilezles.org/www/articles/sphereao/sphereao.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to summarize: The Order uses capsules for AO, TLoU goes a step further and uses them for ambient light shadows.

I don't think there's anything else to add.

Well you can see for yourselves. There's a full walkthrough of the game (not speed run) on YouTube..and it's 5h20 long:
DO NOT CLICK IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlBoxwve3-ZEy3pPYBI4xlQ6dCcXmWwfX
Ep 1: 12:28
Ep 2: 29:23
Ep 3: 16:33
Ep 4: 46:01
Ep 5: 24:26
Ep 6: 32:42
Ep 7: 7:33
Ep 8: 6:42
Ep 9: 21:38
Ep 10: 43:08
Ep 11: 4:08
Ep 12: 44:16
Ep 13: 5:37
Ep 14: 5:18
Ep 15: 5:32
Ep 16: 10:49
Ep 17 (the end/boss/ch.18): 9:24

Which one is the level with rain? I hear there's a level with rain in it. Rain makes everything look so pretty

EDIT: It's Chapter 11. It's also an

Spoiler

insta-fail

section :/

 

[Scott_Arm]

Any time I start a game on normal, I end up regretting it.

 

[HTupolev]

You'd understand better if you read the papers about the games mentioned on RAD's presentation.

Huh. I think part of the issue is that I haven't seen what you're looking at. The SIGGRAPH 2013 presentation has great notes and sources, but doesn't delve into AO. The GDC2014 presentation involved AO, but I've only seen the slides on GDCVault, which don't have much in the way of references or discussion.

http://www.iquilezles.org/www/articles/sphereao/sphereao.htm

So they're using a hemisphere coverage calculation adjusted for lambert. Roughly the same as the non-directioned component of TLoU's AO.

I'm still puzzled by what you said about "radius of effect". I'd imagine the capsules have surface-relative draw distance for efficiency reasons, but that doesn't have much to do with the method; there's probably a similar efficiency consideration made even for stuff like TLoU's directional cone stuff, as you wouldn't want to be calculating for occluders when they get small relative to the cone's solid angle. Using a cone instead of a hemisphere would just push the relevant distance out a bit, depending on the cone's width.

 

[L. Scofield]

If they make a sequel I hope they improve the particle effects and facial animations. I'd say those are the weakest points graphics wise.

I guess I'm still confused as to why you brought up "radius of effect". I'd imagine the capsules have surface-relative draw distance for efficiency reasons, but that doesn't have much to do with the method; there's probably a similar efficiency consideration made even for stuff like TLoU's directional cone stuff, as you wouldn't want to be calculating for occluders when they get small relative to the cone's solid angle. Using a cone instead of a hemisphere would just push the relevant distance out a bit, depending on the cone's width.

It simply means they have a uniformly limited area of effect.

 

[HTupolev]

It simply means they have a uniformly limited area of effect.

The method described in the linked document would make it entirely possible for wide occluders to have a significant effect on things at distances where small occluders would be totally unnoticeable in terms of AO.

Supposing they are cut off at a uniform distance, that would be an efficiency-related implementation detail, not an aspect of the core algorithm, and (unless they really cheap out on draw distance) shouldn't meaningfully impact the graphical result.

 

[L. Scofield]

The method described in the linked document would make it entirely possible for wide occluders to have a significant effect on things at distances where small occluders would be totally unnoticeable in terms of AO.

Supposing they are cut off at a uniform distance, that would be an efficiency-related implementation detail, not an aspect of the core algorithm, and (unless they really cheap out on draw distance) shouldn't meaningfully impact the graphical result.

Well sure, the area of effect would be proportional to the capsule sizes.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Borrowed *cough* from GAF.

This is why you shouldn't play with grenades.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Wow, it looks like it's blown bits off. Impressive.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Wow, it looks like it's blown bits off. Impressive.

Yup. Colour me impressed. The colour being blood red