Suggest ideas to make F1 more competetive... :D

Doomtrooper said:
Not sure about current F1 rules but a couple of items comes to mind:

1) Remove the turbocharger penalty from 1.5 liters for max Displacement

2) Change the tire wear and force more pitstops

2) Lower the fuel cell capacity

3) Allow cars with lower bhp to have a wider car track width of 180 centimeters (wider wheelbase for better cornering)

4) Aero adjustments

Umm... you're not making much sense, I'm afraid.

1) Remove the turbocharger penalty? Turbos are banned outright since 1989.

2) _Change_ tyre wear? How would you do that practically?

3) Why?

4) Which cars would that be? Would the FIA bench each engine and then calculate the track width?

5) This is a valid topic, however I don't see a solution to it. Aerodynamic downforce is a factor on all racecars since circa 1968 and it won't go away, ever. Even in 1970 Jochen Rindth complained about losing grip trailing behind cars. In 1970! That's when the aero cars were just a few seconds faster than the NON-downforce cars a couple of years before...
Short of going to Formula Fords you just have to deal with it.


US:
F3000:s use 3l V8:s. They're basically '70-'80s F1 engines, Ford Cosworth DFZ(zetec's now they call them). An evolution of the DFV classic, really.
 
My understanding was F1 did not ban completley turbo chargers, but lower the engine displacement to a max of 1.5 liters. I may be out of touch on that one :)

Tire wear is a easy one, compounds can be easily changed for soft or harder ..I personally race Solo 1 racing and some Formula 1000 cars and it happens all the time in all forms of racing. So you may have excellent grip for say 20 laps but the curve will drop quickly and force more driver input, and more pit stops which puts more pressure on the team to perform. This one is very easy to implement.

Fuel Cell capacity is a way to tighten up the grid, the more power you make the more fuel you burn so cars that dominate on large courses that have big power will need to pit more.

The wider wheelbase is also easy to implement, F1 already knows what each engine on every team has for power. Teams with lower power would get X amount of cm's allowed to the chasis. This would allow lower powered cards to drive the car deeper into the corners, and help make up the power deficenies. (this one would have to be tested extensivley to be fair)

Aero adjustments are a little harder to implement, each chasis would have to be put in a wind tunnel, compare and adjust accodingly.

The bottom line is, racing is about the racing team and the car, so to make racing more balanced they need to introduce some of these types of fixes to make the race worth watching. You don't want to eliminate engineering improvements and take away some of the mechanical genious , nor penalize a drivers skill , the idea would be to see races won on strategy and overall team skill (like IROC).F1 is responsible for the state of racing overall yet they have done little to balance the field. I don't follow F1 much anymore as Ferrari is lapping the field on most occasions <yawn>.
 
Doomtrooper said:
My understanding was F1 did not ban completley turbo chargers, but lower the engine displacement to a max of 1.5 liters. I may be out of touch on that one :)

I believe you are thinking of CART on that one. F1 is 3.0 Litre, normally aspirated.
 
Thanks Dave, Yes I just looked it up, ok scratch that one...change it to remove ban from turbochargers. And allow only so much boost, say 12 psi.

:oops:
 
Doomtrooper said:
My understanding was F1 did not ban completley turbo chargers, but lower the engine displacement to a max of 1.5 liters. I may be out of touch on that one :)

Right-o. :)

The overpressurized engines were always 1.5 litres, hence the turbo engines were aswell. It was left as a holdover from the original F1 formula from 1948(4.5 litres, 1.5 litres supercharged) when they went to the new engine spec. in 1966(3.0 litres).

There was a 1.5 mechanically supercharged F1 car in 1953 already! A 1500cc V16!


Tire wear is a easy one, compounds can be easily changed for soft or harder ..I personally race Solo 1 racing and some Formula 1000 cars and it happens all the time in all forms of racing. So you may have excellent grip for say 20 laps but the curve will drop quickly and force more driver input, and more pit stops which puts more pressure on the team to perform. This one is very easy to implement.

Sure, all racecars use all kinds of rubber compounds depending on circumstances. But you see, anybody can make tyres for F1:s, and the teams and the drivers choose which suits them, the track, the weather and the car to go the fastest they possibly could(averaged over the race distance). In fact most of the time they use the softest rubber they can get away with already. It was right on the edge last weekend with both the Michelins and the Bridgestones, go any softer and you have to tippy-toe around the track to keep them from blistering and ultimately falling completely apart.

What you're really saying in that case, is that you would force one-make tyres and force a single tyre compound for all cars. I wouldn't call that easy. :)

Fuel Cell capacity is a way to tighten up the grid, the more power you make the more fuel you burn so cars that dominate on large courses that have big power will need to pit more.

Well most other F1 critics call for less pitstops, not more. Besides, the fuel consumption isn't that all that varied between the cars to make that much of a difference. All engine manufacturers focuses on fuel consumption already, with the fact that every five kilos of fuel equals between one or two of thenths in laptime.

The power delta isn't all that great either to begin with. Last year the spread was something like a bit over 800bhp for the weakest(Renault!) to about around 900bhp for Ferrari and BMW. (all rumours/estimates)

The wider wheelbase is also easy to implement, F1 already knows what each engine on every team has for power.

No they don't. The engine manufacturers have no obligation to reveal the power output.

Teams with lower power would get X amount of cm's allowed to the chasis. This would allow lower powered cards to drive the car deeper into the corners, and help make up the power deficenies. (this one would have to be tested extensivley to be fair)

The thing is, it's never going to be fair. And if extensive (unbiased)testing is necessary I certainly wouldn't call it easy. Bloody hard more likely.

What's fair in my book, is that all manufacturers have the same opportunity to build an engine just as strong as the competitors. It's the same rule for all: 3 litres, 10 cylinders.

Aero adjustments are a little harder to implement, each chasis would have to be put in a wind tunnel, compare and adjust accodingly.

The bottom line is, racing is about the racing team and the car, so to make racing more balanced they need to introduce some of these types of fixes to make the race worth watching. You don't want to eliminate engineering improvements and take away some of the mechanical genious , nor penalize a drivers skill , the idea would be to see races won on strategy and overall team skill (like IROC).F1 is responsible for the state of racing overall yet they have done little to balance the field. I don't follow F1 much anymore as Ferrari is lapping the field on most occasions <yawn>.

But takes away engineering skill is what IROC(and NASCAR) does by definition(come on, pushrods in the 21st century?)! One-make series is the exact opposite from what F1 is about, and I consider NASCAR one-make, or as close you can get without actually calling it that.

The whole point of Grand Prix racing from the beginning was to promote the CARS and especially their engines. In the pre-war Grand Prix racing it was the cars that were the stars, there were famous drivers, but they were just employed paid pilots to get the CAR over the finish line first.

Today, it seems from all the (mostly F1)detractors, it seems that the DRIVER is the star and the car is just a means to get the DRIVER over the finish line first. Having a better car is seen as "unfair". I say to them that they have missed the entire point of racing in the first place.

My view of racing is:
1) You build(or buy) a car
2) You drive it, or, if you're shit, you get another one to drive it for you
3) You try to get it over the finish line first
 
A driver can only do so much, put MICHAEL SHUMACHER in a JAGUAR chasis and see what happens :D

If it is true F1 doesn't monitor engine output no wonder F1 is in a mess :!:
I don't think we need to force one Tire Manufacturer, tire testing is done all the time in all forms of racing. Having a tire from each manufacturer tested for each track, or two sets wet and dry but still with the same wear (higher powered engines would of course wear out their rubber quicker)

I still believe some of these ideas that have been used in other forms of racing will help. If F1 fans find pit stops boring then they need to spice up the Pit Stop itself and make it more exciting.


If F1 will do nothing to balance HP, the only other way to 'even' the field is use these tried and proven techniques.
 
Doomtrooper said:
A driver can only do so much, put MICHAEL SHUMACHER in a JAGUAR chasis and see what happens :D

You'd be surprised. A famous quote from a couple of years back is that they reckon Shumacher in your car can add another 1-2 seconds - an age in F1 performance. And that's not including all the experience and input he brings to the development of the car itself. Ferrari *was* the Jaguar of F1 when Shumacher moved from Benneton to Ferrari. They spent the money, built the car, and improved the team. They really did work for the success they have now.

Just watch Shumacher drive - he gets away with stuff that no one else would - and he does it all the time. I'm no great fan of his as a person, but he really does have the skill (and luck) of the devil when he's inside an F1 car.

Just look at Barhain's qualifying. On one corner everyone had to slow down or slide around the corner. On the same corner Shumacher's car slipped, and he gathered it up without taking his foot off the throttle and without losing any time. He has the uncanny ability to put all of his best sectors into one lap. He always gets those extra fast laps in and out of the pits. Of course the fact that the Ferrari mechanics nearly always seem to get it right were the other teams seems to make more mistakes, or the fact that the Ferraris are far more reliable cars will help massively.

Everything we are talking about here is really talking about penalising the success of the best car/driver/team. If you're going to get penalised for winning, why bother competing at all?

They've made loads of changes to F1 over the last few years to try and make it more "competative" (read: television friendly), and yet Ferrari is still coming out on top, because that's what good teams do. Renault and BAR have improved greatly this year, and they are getting better results. MacLaren have dropped the ball and they have slipped down the rankings. I don't see anything wrong with Ferrari winning the first few races because they are the best team at the moment - their success proves it.

Here's a hypothetical. Suppose Ferrari and Shumacher gave up F1 next year. Would it be more exciting or watchable? Would we miss out on the "driver we love (or love to hate)"? Would we see the teams stop striving to reach the same kind of quality Ferrari have demonstrated? Would we care as much if the other teams didn't have a "dominating" competitor to try and beat? Would it mean as much if/when the other teams start getting podium positions ahead of Ferrari?
 
I think Formula 1 isn't for you[edit: Doom, that is]... ;)

Why on earth would anybody keep check on power output for instance? Just to penalise those who are successful in building engines?

Such crap just make it contrived and trivialises what racing is all about. NASCAR for instance embodies all I despise about what some have made racing into. :devilish: A board of directors deciding which brand to favour next for maximum interest, throwing out phantom yellows when the field is too drawn out, handing out different choke-plates to different teams... oh man, I'm getting worked up, better leave the subject... :)


"A driver can only do so much, put MICHAEL SHUMACHER in a JAGUAR chasis and see what happens "

Err... that was my point. Michael is employed to win for Ferrari, not the other way around. Although I suspect that Michael(especially if bringing Ross Brawn et.al. over) could make that into a racewinner, given time.

It sounds to me that one-make IS what you want. I say that there is no equal opportunity in racing, by definition, so people shouldn't call for team affirmative action either.
 
Nope not a big fan of F1 'anymore'..I used to be years ago(IMO F1 has the greatest technology out there for Open Wheel racing), I drove F2000 Open Wheel cars myself occasionally. I don't think F1 puts a good product out there for entertainment. I'm not a big fan of Nascars rules either, but at least there is close racing....not watching two cars lap the field.

The engine issue is a interesting one, race teams survive from sponsorship and race money (I have lived this). Having the most powerful engine relates directly to whoever has the most engineering money. This applies to all levels of racing, history has shown this.
Not every race team has that kind of money (I see alot of former players for powerplants have dropped out), and it is up to the governing body to ensure there is a level playing field..otherwise only the rich win.

Everything we are talking about here is really talking about penalising the success of the best car/driver/team. If you're going to get penalised for winning, why bother competing at all?

Or the one with the most money, I suggest you try racing today at any level and see what I mean :D
 
Doomtrooper said:
Everything we are talking about here is really talking about penalising the success of the best car/driver/team. If you're going to get penalised for winning, why bother competing at all?

Or the one with the most money, I suggest you try racing today at any level and see what I mean :D

Hmm, so companies like Ford, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, and Honda don't have enough money to compete with Ferrari?

If the problem is with budgets, why are you suggesting restrictions on car design instead of restrictions on money?

I'd rather F1 stays the way it is now than gets reduced to the WWF of racing (like Nascar).
 
Yes every company has a race budget, F1 is not the only racing venue alot of those manufacturers take part it. Last year Toyotas engine budget for F1 was 170 million dollars :!: :!: ....that is just the engine, thats lat 100 times more than any other racing program.

So even if you do have the money, you still need to WIN to stay afloat otherwise there is no point being there finishing last. As no sponsor out there pays the huge amounts of $$ for no TV time.
 
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