Studio Liverpool axed?

[nightshade]

Yea its funny to see Sony simply giving the boot to old and successful studios like Liverpool and Zipper (that too right after the launch of their games, Unit 13 for Zipper and Wipeout 2048 for Liverpool), they could've sold it instead or just repurposed them. Buying an extremely productive studio such as Psygnosis only to limit their productivity severely and then shutting them off completely is simply sad. What's worse is that according to news Liverpool was apparently working on two PS4 tittles.

While on the other hand you've got studios like Team Ico who've made just two highly critical but commercially flop games and have been working on a vaporware for years and they survive.

 

[ERP]

I do work for Sony but I've never worked for a Sony studio, my impression though is that the studios remain largely independent and studio leadership is given a lot of say in what they build.
Obviously they are also held accountable financially.

I don't think any of these decisions are taken lightly.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But it's likely not the same talent pool today it was even 5 years ago.

Oh for sure, people come and go. But I don't believe that new people brought into the studio wouldn't know what to do with free reign if given the opportunity in the same way that new IPs from new studios are. And the IP they have could have been leveraged with a safe base-level interest just to create a sort of collective indie studio. Any Shadow of the Beast game would have received significant starting interest. A PSN side-scroller created in the best vein of Psygonsis's focus on art would have been an obvious choice. Or they could have created some new SotB game. Rather than just stick them on Wipeout games time after time, why not let them create some of these new-wave games that Sony are happy to support? I'm sure the game turnaround would have been very beneficial to the library. For a new platform like Vita of PSMobile, I'm sure a seasoned studio with creative freedom could produce dozens of top-drawer titles a year. Instead, Sony have ended this studio and are hoping PSMobile will be catapulted to success by random indie developments, instead of backing it whole-hog.

The reason for the closure given is that Sony did a usual evaluation of the European projects and decided Studio Liverpool wasn't producing something of value. Surely it makes more sense to repurpose them then?! If it's a matter of downsizing due to financial concerns, then we have to be looking at a future Sony closing most of its first party studios because having the same developers working 2nd party is cheaper. But a good studio creating good games is going to turn a healthy profit, so I don't really see closing studios and reducing content output as a sensible move.

 

[Grall]

'Psygnosis presents...a DMA Design game...Bloooooood Money'....was my first game on Amiga.

Blood Money was a really good game. I loved it, when you got your ship all powered up with extra weapons and stuff.

I totally don't understand why Sony never continued any of the old Psygnosis titles. Barbarian and Obliterator were fascinating games back in the day (although the control schemes were wonky to say the least!), Terrorpods was great, Shadow of the Beast was obviously a killer title back in the day and so on...

 

[Arwin]

I worked with them pre Sony buyout.
I wrote the Genesis ports of Shadow of the Beast 1 and 2, I also did a Bloodmoney port, but it never shipped.

I bought Blood Money in Paris, while on holiday there with my father. I almost exactly remember what the store looked like, and it is one of those rare games that I played right to the end. When I saw those jellifish for the first time I was totally impressed, and I still think of this game when I'm wondering why no modern version of these games can look so wonderfully organic (fairly easy answer, but I'm still annoyed and hope this passes soon).

It is also one of the few games I can't find a version of for something like STeem (Atari ST emulator, which is what I played it on). If anyone knows where I can find a copy (my own version broke down ages ago, or I"d have used that), I'd be much appreciated.

I hear most, but not all, people at this studio will relocate to other departments / studios, and I personally actually think this doesn't have to be a bad thing, depending on who and where. Of course those that would have been made redundant, that's always a shame.

 

[ERP]

But a good studio creating good games is going to turn a healthy profit.

If only that were true....

Let's look at it a different way, there is a fixed budget for Sony World Wide Studios, that includes funding the many Indy like games (black swan, journey etc), would you prefer 1 wipeout or perhaps a dozen experimental games.
Now I'm making that up, because budgets don't work exactly like that, but the point is that there is an opportunity cost involved in the investment in any AAA title on top of the pure monetary investment.

I'm not trying to say that this was the right move for Sony, I really don't have an opinion, I visited studio Liverpool exactly once, and they seemed weel run, I'm just pointing out that a lot of thought goes into these decisions, and it's not always black and white.

 

[Ghostz]

Don't get why people are surprised...unprofitable studios get closed down all the time...

 

[Grall]

We're surprised, because with the heritage this studio had it totally shouldn't have been unprofitable. Instead all they ever did under Sony's ownership was put out a Wipeout once or twice every half-decade, if even that.

Big actors such as Sony, but also Microsoft, Activision or EA, buy up popular, successful studios, and then look at them and go "whuh?!", like they totally don't know what the fuck it is they just bought, shrug, and just toss the studio down their bag where it's left to languish and get infused with corporate influences in the dark until all the talent and spirit has bled out. Then they close the studio down because it was unprofitable.

What a surprise THAT would happen, eh!

 

[Ghostz]

Being an expensive studio that only shipped Wipeout once or twice every couple years, the writing was on the wall...

Heritage has nothing to so with it, they weren't making games people buy. It appears they also weren't conceptualizing games Sony would risk bringing market because we all know by now Sony doesn't really have any problem green lighting abstract concepts.

 

[ERP]

We're surprised, because with the heritage this studio had it totally shouldn't have been unprofitable. Instead all they ever did under Sony's ownership was put out a Wipeout once or twice every half-decade, if even that.

Big actors such as Sony, but also Microsoft, Activision or EA, buy up popular, successful studios, and then look at them and go "whuh?!", like they totally don't know what the fuck it is they just bought, shrug, and just toss the studio down their bag where it's left to languish and get infused with corporate influences in the dark until all the talent and spirit has bled out. Then they close the studio down because it was unprofitable.

What a surprise THAT would happen, eh!

It's not like Sony bought them last year.

If you look at what made Psygnosis great in the late 80's and early 90's, it wasn't internally developed products, Reflections, DMA designs, WJS design, travellers tales and Martin Chudlies company ( can't remember the name) were all independently owned. They were just a publisher and Ian Hetherington happened to have a relationship with the somewhat famous artist who did their box art.
I'm all for looking back with rose colored spectacles, but a lot of what people consider Psygnosis' greatness was not developed by Psygnosis. I'm not even sure how much of the IP they own, it was nothing like as common back then to sign over IP rights when you got funding for a game.

There are many things to knock Sony on, but they generally do a pretty good job of leaving their 1st parties alone to be creative, that same freedom swings both ways.

And as I said above it's down to studio management what they develop, what they spend and when they deliver it, they have to get buy in from production like everyone else.

 

[warb]

They did only Wipeout and F1 games once they became SCE Studio Liverpool. It would seem those games are not as profitable as they were.

 

[Gitaroo]

hope they at least kept those engineers.

 

[RudeCurve]

Never understood the hype behind the Wipeout series....F-Zero...especially the GC version looked much more interesting and was more fun imo...

Anyway too bad they're closing down the studio instead of giving them more interesting projects.

 

[Nesh]

Wipeout was very fun but also oozed in style. The soundtrack, design and gameplay were fused together amazingly well.
Wipeout was a journey to a futuristic world and electronic music which almost resembled a cult of its own. Its world was, although Sci-Fi, it also felt genuine, unique and believable. Probably thats also thanks to the help of the Designer's Republic at the time. It was the game that introduced me to the world of Techno. My experience with Wipeout 1 which was my first PS1 game (along with Toshinden) in 1996 was an ecstatic experience I couldnt leave from my hands. Everyday it was Wipeout. I cant explain how I felt when playing Wipeout1 and Wipeout XL.

F-Zero is very fun but I dont think it has as strong soul as nor the amazing style of Wipeout.

Its not hype that you see. Its admiration from the old fanbase who continued since the PS1

Being an expensive studio that only shipped Wipeout once or twice every couple years, the writing was on the wall...

Heritage has nothing to so with it, they weren't making games people buy. It appears they also weren't conceptualizing games Sony would risk bringing market because we all know by now Sony doesn't really have any problem green lighting abstract concepts.

It wasnt that they werent making games that people buy. They werent making games in general since the day they were transformed from Psygnosis to Studio Liverpool. I dont know what happened to them since then.But it was just Wipeout and F1 since 2001, whereas during the PS1 days they were making lots of games which were very popular and defined the Playstation experience.

They could have developed new IP's just like Naughty Dog, or even continued some of the old.

Psygnosis were very talented developers, some of their games were iconic.

People were expecting their presence to be as significant on the PS2 as they were on the PS1.

Lemmings, G-Police, Colony Wars, Destruction Derby, Discworld, Rollcage, Adidas Power Soccer, Krazy Ivan etc. Psygnosis was a developer house which fueled the PS1 launch with games and continued to fuel it till the end like a powerhouse
Only Wipeout and F1 were continued after the PS1, and these games werent as good as they were in the PS1 days except probably for Wipeout HD/Fusion.We saw no other effort to create anything new for two generations.
It makes me wonder how they changed from making many games and trying new ideas, to a company that relied on two franchises only for two generations and was trying to sustain itself through them alone

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If only that were true....

Let's look at it a different way, there is a fixed budget for Sony World Wide Studios, that includes funding the many Indy like games (black swan, journey etc), would you prefer 1 wipeout or perhaps a dozen experimental games.

If Sony wanted a dozen experimental titles, why outsource that rather than encourage internal development? Now if Wipeout was Studio Liverpool's choice, and they said to Sony, "we only want to make Wipeout," then it's fair to close them (if that same investment can generate more profit elsewhere). But if it's just varied games Sony want, I don't see why they feel the need to outsource that rather than encourage it as an internal culture. I don't know any Sony 1st party studios that are creating smaller, experimental games like Journey and Black Swan.

Unless this just isn't possible, and a studio of 100 people can only create one or two games at a time? But it seems daft to me to send these devs packing only for them to move to other studios and work on other games that Sony want. It's the same people producing the same content - if you own that content, it's much more profitable, as Nintendo knows only too well.

Being an expensive studio that only shipped Wipeout once or twice every couple years, the writing was on the wall...

Heritage has nothing to so with it, they weren't making games people buy. It appears they also weren't conceptualizing games Sony would risk bringing market because we all know by now Sony doesn't really have any problem green lighting abstract concepts.

Is there any evidence of Sony encouraging out-there games from their first-party studios? When we read that they pressured Naughty Dog into creating a shooter when ND didn't want to, is it really safe to think that all Sony's first party studios are very free to do their own thing, and this focus on Wipeout was entirely Studio Liverpool's choice?

AFAIK most studios that repeat the same franchise do so because they are afraid a new IP will fail financially, or publisher won't fund new ideas. eg. Team 17 producing little more than Worms for a decade. A first party studio doesn't have that fear because the employees get paid regardless of how the game does. In those circumstances I'd expect the developers to take the opportunity to be a little more original, and if they don't, I'd expect there to be external influences. Can't say for sure, but I wouldn't say it's obviously Studio Liverpool's fault as you say. Plus I'm sure in conversations with Sony, Sony would have talked about it and suggested they didn't want another Wipeout, if that's how things were. I don't imagine Sony simply looked at Studio Liverpool's lineup, said, "Christ, another Wipeout game. Can't these guys think of anything original?" and pulled the plug just like that.

 

[Prophecy2k]

....

They could have developed new IP's just like Naughty Dog, or even continued some of the old.

Psygnosis were very talented developers, some of their games were iconic.

People were expecting their presence to be as significant on the PS2 as they were on the PS1.

Lemmings, G-Police, Colony Wars, Destruction Derby, Discworld, Rollcage, Adidas Power Soccer, Krazy Ivan etc. Psygnosis was a developer house which fueled the PS1 launch with games and continued to fuel it till the end like a powerhouse
Only Wipeout and F1 were continued after the PS1, and these games werent as good as they were in the PS1 days except probably for Wipeout HD/Fusion.We saw no other effort to create anything new for two generations.
It makes me wonder how they changed from making many games and trying new ideas, to a company that relied on two franchises only for two generations and was trying to sustain itself through them alone

I think this is somewhat significant. Whilst we probably will never know what really happened to the studio that made them turn from the creators of one of my favourite franchises ever (Colony Wars) to a wipeout/F1 factory, i think the very sudden change between the PS1 era and PS2 era definitely suggests that something significant occured in the studio during that time.

Perhaps it was studio-level change, or even something driven by Sony themselves. I don't really know. It does seem to me however that Sony WWS has been slowly gutting all their UK studios of all AAA, big budget development games and transitioning them to singstar, eyepet and casual stuff houses.

It almost makes me think that Sony is seeking to transfer all its AAA core gamer-type game development to the US, by bolstering its US studios and expanding them, whilst starving and closng its UK ones.

It's a damned shame, cuz their UK studios have historically produced some of my most memorable and favoured titles. Stuff like Colony Wars, MediEvil and the beautiful masterpiece (that changed my life) that was Primal (its a crime that we haven't had a sequel to this game).

At the same time their sending their big-dogs over to Japan to revive their Japanese studios, who are now putting out some really interesting stuff. Guerilla Games too has had some expansions, and they seem to be doing pretty well too.

I just wish Sony would instead of closing its British studios, try to revive them similarly as they have done in Japan. In the case of studios like Liverpool, I even doubt there was much need for revival in that sense, as even though they've done only Wipeout games, those games have never been badly recieved critically. It stands to reason that a studio that makes great games (wipeout) in one genre that no longer sells, might have a better chance at developing a smash hit new IP in another genre, moreso than some unknown indie would for that matter. They couldhave put them on Vita games for heaven's sake...

Whilst I appreciate the comments and factors raised by ERP, in that i'm sure there are a whole host of risk and economic factors that are unknown to us. I still feel as if closing Liverpool was a mistake, and that they should have been repurposed to try out newer ideas (if their studio head's weren't creative enough with ideas, fly in one of the US guys, or contract in someone like Jaffe).

Edit: Just realised Studio Liverpool was founded in the year I was born

 

[tuna]

While on the other hand you've got studios like Team Ico who've made just two highly critical but commercially flop games and have been working on a vaporware for years and they survive.

SoTC sold (according to vgcharz) 1.14M (PS2) + 0.72M (PS3 remaster). I would not call that a commercial flop. The also did not seem to have an especially large development team....

 

[tuna]

It seems a lot of people are confused about what games Psygniosis/Studio Liverpool actually developed. For example, Lemmings was a DMA game, MediEvil was a Millenum/Studio Cambridge game. Please get you facts straight.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yeah, after looking them up I realise Psygnosis were more a publisher than I realised. However, they did fund and support innovative games like Lemmings - the management weren't averse to risk taking in that respect.

 

[i_am_interested]

would have loved to have seen a ps4 wipeout and this "splinter cell" like game cough*syphon filter*cough

but unfortunately (or fortunately,depends), i get the feeling that heading into this next generation, the bigger studios at sony need more money and its gotta come from somewhere