Soundcards an outdated concept?

[willardjuice]

A3D killed performance too much in general. It turns out people didn't want to sacrifice performance hits for higher quality audio. In addition it required some tweaking by the user to fully work to its potential. While EAX was clearly inferior, its overall ease to setup and virtually no performance reduction made it a more attractive than A3D (it was also open at the time too).

If it makes you feel any better, EAX 5 effectively now has the same capabilities as A3D.

 

[aaaaa00]

Dedicated audio DSP cards are fast becoming a niche product.

These days most motherboard audio solutions ship with digital outputs. This renders the whole problem of analog noise irrelevant.

CPUs are getting so fast now, and with ubiquitous multicore just around the corner, there's little problem in setting aside some CPU time on a spare core to perform audio processing.

Neither the 360 nor the PS3 have dedicated audio effects DSPs, though the 360 has a fairly powerful WMA decode accelerator which lets developers decompress hundreds of WMA channels at the same time.

Likewise, Vista by default does not support hardware audio acceleration.

 

[BRiT]

Likewise, Vista by default does not support hardware audio acceleration for these reasons.

Vista doesn't support it because MS fucked up when designing that portion of it. To not even allow for a provision to hardware accelerate portions of the sound stack is incomprehensible when it comes to system architecture.

 

[aaaaa00]

Vista doesn't support it because MS fucked up when designing that portion of it. To not even allow for a provision to hardware accelerate portions of the sound stack is incomprehensible when it comes to system architecture.

The new effects architecture allows people to write arbitrary effects modules that plug into the audio stack.

Since there is no standard for audio DSP instruction sets, you'd have to invent one, and recompile any effect modules into sound card specific code... hey wait, this already looks like DX shaders all over again... hmm. That's a pretty big investment and a lot of work to design.

Now wait a sec, how many high performance programmable sound cards get sold anyway? Not a whole lot. How many companies are still in the business of making these? One? Creative?

Frankly, I expect that in the future, you'll be doing any audio processing on your quad-core CPU, or maybe your GPU. They both will be math monsters anyway.

The necessity of hardware audio acceleration is long past. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Blazkowicz]

These days most motherboard audio solutions ship with digital outputs. This renders the whole problem of analog noise irrelevant.

except for the 95% people using analog speakers or amp? I don't own any piece of hardware featuring a digital input.

 

[Kaotik]

Likewise, Vista by default does not support hardware audio acceleration.

Vista doesn't support it because MS fucked up when designing that portion of it. To not even allow for a provision to hardware accelerate portions of the sound stack is incomprehensible when it comes to system architecture.

It does as far as I know support hardware acceleration too, just not things like hardware accelerated DirectSound3D.
At least DXDiag tells me I have "Basic" level of hardware acceleration on sound with my Audigy 2.

 

[aaaaa00]

except for the 95% people using analog speakers or amp? I don't own any piece of hardware featuring a digital input.

If you really care about audio quality then use your digital output, and get digital capable equipment or an external DAC.

If you don't really care about audio quality, then motherboard audio is good enough.

The last machine I put together with an Audigy, I discovered that I ended up using the digital output on it anyway. So on my new machine I just use motherboard audio now, and it suffices just fine.

Obviously you're going to get a niche high-end card if you're involved in music production or something like that.

 

[Blazkowicz]

isn't an external DAC a niche equipment already?
and what's the point really. I'm fine with the huge difference the rear output of an Audigy 1 does over my old integrated sound or SB 128 PCI, and it's useful with anything I can plug in (low end speakers or headphone and vintage or oldish amps). As a non-audiophile I really have to have that sound card

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If you really care about audio quality then use your digital output, and get digital capable equipment or an external DAC.

That's a disagreeable sweeping statement! I dislike hiss, but don't have lots of money to buy a 'proper' solution. Saying 'you should pay for proper equipment' is relegating good sound quality to those with plenty of spare cash. 'Sorry mate but you're in the poor section. You're only allowed hiss because we wanted to save a few bucks on decent DACs. Rather than fit some decent analogue-out gear, we'll leave you with digital and a far more expensive solution just to get rid of background hiss.'

Don't categorize everyone into either 'dosen't care' or 'serious enthusiast willing to spend.' There are shades of people with different priorities and circumstances. I have a nice enough pair of headphones that I listen with. I'm sure plenty of AV enthusiasts will laugh at the low-grade solution I have compared to what a proper solution can achieve, but it sounds good to me and didn't cost the earth. I can't see it as unreasonable for audio outputs to be good quality, like the SBLive's rear ports. It's not expensive, and benefits most people with audio out. Even if they don't look for hiss-free solutions, people do prefer it and will be pleased.

 

[Blazkowicz]

to each his own. I don't give a shit about SP/DIF, HDMI, firewire (or even 5.1) but some people do.

 

[Bolloxoid]

If you really care about audio quality then use your digital output, and get digital capable equipment or an external DAC.

That doesn't solve the problem entirely though. A cheap audio codec can butcher the audio quality just as well in the digital domain by poor resampling.

 

[Albuquerque]

That doesn't solve the problem entirely though. A cheap audio codec can butcher the audio quality just as well in the digital domain by poor resampling.

Yup, just look at Creative There are lots of onboard audio solutions out there that don't "hiss", but I'm sure there are people on this forum who will see a single example and blanket them all with the same label.

My Dell e1505 has (crappy, hissy, cheap, worthless) Sigmatel audio card onboard. Using a (god/gods forbid, OMG sux0r) Radio Shack $3 1/8" DIN-to-RCA converter, I've plugged this thing into my home theater system several dozen times for listening to FLAC-encoded music.

You know what? At about 65% volume on the home equipment, I still don't hear any hiss. I must obviously be defective, because everyone in here just got done telling me that onboard audio (the Sigmatel was specifically mentioned) is cheap, hissy, crappy and generally worthless.

What am I missing?

 

[aaaaa00]

That doesn't solve the problem entirely though. A cheap audio codec can butcher the audio quality just as well in the digital domain by poor resampling.

Actually this is one of the things Vista's software based audio stack fixes.

Vista does all the mixing and resampling in full 32-bit floating point, at up to 192 khz (user configurable) *before* it gets to the codec. It uses an extremely high quality resampling algorithm to do this.

Once the final mix is complete, it sends *one* stream to the codec at its native sample size and rate.

(Apps can query and bypass all software mixing and sample rate conversion if they desire, for example if they want to output bit-for-bit compressed audio streams like Dolby Digital or DTS.)

 

[nthd]

What am I missing?

The top octave or two, apparently.

 

[Albuquerque]

The top octave or two, apparently.

I can assure you that I'm not Last I had my ears checked, I'm good for the full testable spectrum and it's all being reproduced. SQ may not be as nice as my SDPIF-coaxially-connected DVD player, but there is certainly no hiss and no miscellaneous noise that shouldn't be there.

Humorously enough in context with another recent previous post, I am using Vista on my Dell. Not that I would assume that makes any difference in this particular scenario...

 

[AlNom]

Yup, just look at Creative There are lots of onboard audio solutions out there that don't "hiss",

Tell me about it. I've got 4 mobos with onboard sound and they're not bad for hiss. My Audigy 2 ZS on the other hand... Gives me sound loops and screeching and reboots and crackles when I use the volume knob for my speakers.

 

[swaaye]

I've only had problems with Audigy 2 ZS on my previous NFORCE 4 board, courtesy of a bad PCI implementation. And I only experienced problems in a few OpenAL Doom3 engine games. Oh SHOCKER! There's somethine else wrong with NFORCE4! NVIDIA can't make PCI work any better than VIA!!

The card works fine on my P965 and even earlier on a NFORCE 2. I've certainly never had problems changing speaker volume.

But yea, let's just rip apart Creative as usual. (mainly cuz they killed A3D, I imagine). It's not like they're the only game in town for this "worthless" audio acceleration. Or the only company still supporting sound cards released in 1998. Etc etc.....

 

[Skrying]

Onboard audio is fine for most because people have $50 5.1 systems for their computers. Seriously, that Logitech X-530 is crazy popular because its so cheap and 5.1. People simply don't care about audio that much. I would kill for quality audio and have spent just as much money over time in audio as graphics, but to be frank I'm part of a very small group. To be honest a X-Fi doesn't sound any better than onboard Realtek HD when your speakers/headphones are crap, and this idea of hiss is overblown...

 

[swaaye]

Onboard audio is fine for most because people have $50 5.1 systems for their computers. Seriously, that Logitech X-530 is crazy popular because its so cheap and 5.1. People simply don't care about audio that much. I would kill for quality audio and have spent just as much money over time in audio as graphics, but to be frank I'm part of a very small group. To be honest a X-Fi doesn't sound any better than onboard Realtek HD when your speakers/headphones are crap, and this idea of hiss is overblown...

I agree with you 100%. People blame the industry for the stagnation of audio, usually, but I do think it comes down to people not really caring about audio. Most people I know use shitty speakers placed all wrong or basically-free headphones with their onboard mobo audio and are always seemingly quite happy with what they get. Many of these people are resistant to even having to ponder better audio solutions. It's as if they can't comprehend that there is more to audio than stereo.

IMO, the biggest problems over the past few years have been the lack of competition, the low-ish number of users with DSP-powered cards, and that CPUs couldn't really do many effects without being pounded into the ground. I am excited to see if audio will become higher quality and more realistic with more powerful CPUs. I think it might be inevitable...maybe. Because devs know they will be able to give everyone the same experience vs. supporting proprietary EAX.

I am less interested in signal quality than effects. In my experience, even a 4.1 setup adds immensely to immersion when compared to phones or 2.1 speakers. Better environmental simulation and interactivity in sound sources would be even better than the generally basic sound positioning we get right now (for the most part). Still, I'm not really convinced that the earlier mentioned group would care even if audio was shockingly interactive and realistic.

 

[AlNom]

I've only had problems with Audigy 2 ZS on my previous NFORCE 4 board, courtesy of a bad PCI implementation. And I only experienced problems in a few OpenAL Doom3 engine games. Oh SHOCKER! There's somethine else wrong with NFORCE4! NVIDIA can't make PCI work any better than VIA!!

The card works fine on my P965 and even earlier on a NFORCE 2. I've certainly never had problems changing speaker volume.

But yea, let's just rip apart Creative as usual. (mainly cuz they killed A3D, I imagine). It's not like they're the only game in town for this "worthless" audio acceleration. Or the only company still supporting sound cards released in 1998. Etc etc.....

Don't get me wrong, I don't have some vendetta that you guys are insinuating. I like the Audigy 2 ZS over the integrated chips, and it was pretty kickass on my A7N8X way back when. I knew about the nForce 4 issues (only after I bought it, the mobo I mean), but now I'm getting problems even with the 590 SLI board that I have, and it's just annoying (bad card?).

I'm pretty close to junking the card in favour of the functioning but inferior integrated sound chip (I meant that the hissing wasn't as bad as the other problems I've been getting). I didn't mean to sound (aw haw haw! ) like I was blaming CL for everything.

What does Aureal got to do with anything I said. Stop putting words into my mouth, please. I was frustrated that the integrated chips were functional whereas my ZS was giving me hell. (I should have made it clear. Plus I was searching all morning for nf590 sli solutions to no avail. )

I'm more optimistic that things will be a lot smoother once they switch to PCI-E.