So really, what's a human?

Without the influence of the reptilian brain, we would not WANT to survive, we'd have no urge to reproduce etc.

And we don't unless you believe it.


Thus the body is not replacable. Our emotions and urges are created by it, without the body we would be desireless robots with no purpose or will to live. What makes us survive and evolve is the will to live and only a living biological body can have that. It's on the genes level and not concious.

Not right, my will to live is out of rationality and one does not kill oneself because one is "sick" and the "normal" state of the brain is interrupted. "Mental illnesses" are an opposite to responsibility.
If you want unconscious processes, I would say self preservation can make you want to live, that to want to avoid pain and fear. (not because it leads to death (death is impossible to imagine), because it is painful and scary). There's no gene that makes a program in your mind to want surviving.

Unless, of course, if you believe it.

If you believe you have kids to spread your genes then you have kids to spread your genes. I may have other reasons for, the spreading of genes is just an effect, not a purpose or cause.

EDIT: FUCK, ok, maybe I didn't get what you said.

If you with the reptilian brain mean the ability to feel something, then maybe you are right by why is this unconscious? I can fantasize consciously and provoke a feeling consciously which I then desire. This is fully done by the mind. And I think it is possible by artificial individuals, since it's about the state of atoms or the state of energy or what it is.

For example, look at castrated humans - they have no will to reproduce, no aggression, they usually become fat, lifeless androginous beings. Why? Because the corresponding body parts creating those feelings and urges are missing.

Look at Tesla.

EDIT: OH SHIT WAIT, are you proposing the idea that anything we do, is done towards getting sex? Is this the "libido"? I think it's the dumbest idea ever.

The new sort of evolution (which is also blazingly fast compared to the genetic evolution) is the intellectual one. Just look at the human mind some 10000 years ago and now. It's a world of difference. But I doubt we will ever become purely etheral, bodiless beings.

Imo it depends on what electricity is. (to me it depends, because I don't know yet.)

For the interested, I can recommend "The Selfish Gene" by Dawkins. Also somewhat related is "The Red Queen" by Ridley.

I've heard of the selfish gene, but selfishness is a property of the ego, which is a "process", a thinking pattern indulged by living in society. Really, if you had the understanding of why you are everything and everyone (is this what the "collective unconscious points to?) you won't give a fuck about yourself. It's like, if your poor and look at a rich person, the ego will go aww, he's ritch and I'm poor, I want money too", but if you are the "collective unconscious", you'll see that you are rich and you are poor, and I end up asking the question what I'm supposed to do with the poor one (the one that is writing this).

I am so offtipic, sry.
 
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Not right, my will to live is out of rationality

No. As a newborn child, a human being is still far away from being rational. But even a kid will fight for its life till it's last breath. That is an instinct we're born with, like breathing or hunger. Nothing rational there.

There's no gene that makes a program in your mind to want surviving.

But surely there is. Try killing an animal and watch what happens. Survival instinct is the origin of life and hardwired into any livivng being, from bacteria to humans.

If you believe you have kids to spread your genes then you have kids to spread your genes. I may have other reasons for, the spreading of genes is just an effect, not a purpose or cause.

You're missing the point. The sexuality is hardwired, the feeling of love toward kids is hardwired. Having kids is an effect, yes. Genes construct us as sexual beings.

If you with the reptilian brain mean the ability to feel something, then maybe you are right by why is this unconscious?

No. Say, a little kid who never saw a lion or a snake or ever heard of it will instinctively be scared if it encounters one, although not knowing what it is or why it's scared. Such thing are also a part of our programming, we're born with a certain unconcious genetic knowledge.

Look at Tesla.

What about Tesla?

EDIT: OH SHIT WAIT, are you proposing the idea that anything we do, is done towards getting sex?

No.

I've heard of the selfish gene, but selfishness is a property of the ego

Yes, the author himself said he wanted to name it "the eternal gene" initially, but used the word selfish to make it more provocative.

Really, if you had the understanding of why you are everything and everyone (is this what the "collective unconscious points to?) you won't give a fuck about yourself.

That is right to some extent, but we don't have the total control all the time regardless. It won't remove the will to live and thrive.
 
Have you ever considered that one atom under your fingernail could be an entire universe? And maybe *our* entire universe is merely one atom under the fingernail of some greater being?

Umm, where'd the bong go? Somebody pass the bong back this way. . .
 
No. As a newborn child, a human being is still far away from being rational. But even a kid will fight for its life till it's last breath. That is an instinct we're born with, like breathing or hunger. Nothing rational there.

What's your basis on that?

Hunger is instinct and hardwiring and what you call it, and as an effect of this hunger, the feeling of hungry, one searches for food. One does not search for food to survive. A newborn would certainly not do it, it supposedly doesn't even know death, or life, or itself as a human.

Wanting to preserve oneself from pain and quench hunger is pretty rational I would say.

I don't know if this has so much to do with it, but there was a test conducted on monkeys and their emphasis. One monkey was wired to some electrical source and the other had access to a button that would stun it. The other monkey in order to get food, had to press the button. When it realized that the other monkey got hurt, it refused to press the button and thus would rater have starved (I don't know how far they went with it). Now this monkey was neither selfish or tried to survive.

And we're talking about monkeys.


But surely there is. Try killing an animal and watch what happens. Survival instinct is the origin of life and hardwired into any livivng being, from bacteria to humans.

I would see self-preservation from trying to avoid pain. I don't think I'd witness any survival instinct. unless of course you want to say i's the same thing, but the point is that there is then no direct connection between genes and willingness to survive.


You're missing the point. The sexuality is hardwired, the feeling of love toward kids is hardwired. Having kids is an effect, yes. Genes construct us as sexual beings.

But what does that matter when I don't have to give a fuck about it? Yes I do get horny, I didn't rationalize forth my horniness, but this doesn't mean my actions are based around it. (Some do, but it's not because their genes dictate their behavior, it's because sex is nice :))


No. Say, a little kid who never saw a lion or a snake or ever heard of it will instinctively be scared if it encounters one, although not knowing what it is or why it's scared. Such thing are also a part of our programming, we're born with a certain unconcious genetic knowledge.

Children are only born with two fears: the fear of loud noises and the fear of falling, it is said. Most fears have been learned and people develop phobia from experience. Another thing, look at wild animals, they are totally fearless, can do awesome stunts. Humans are probably the most wuss creature on this planet.

(btw I saw the other day a really small kid getting all excited about a rottweiller, tried to get close to it and thought it was really fun. Some people are scared shitless of dogs, and it ain't because of their genes.)


What about Tesla?

Women probably didn't exist in his mind. He didn't want to reproduce but he sure as hell wanted to make the best of his life, and in turn make the life of people better.


Hm k I just thought since you talked about reproduction and how ones life force is in a mans balls.


That is right to some extent, but we don't have the total control all the time regardless. It won't remove the will to live and thrive.

In the context of being everything there is no "we". The ego wants to survive and thrive, of course.




Anyhow, can we get to the question on when there is a human being? I'd really like to know that.

edit: actually, when I think about it, since a human being is defined in his organs and the amount of organs, a being that does not have any of the organs cannot be considered an individual of our specie. So this rules out zygots to early fetuses. The second question is then, does it have to be working organs, fully present organs, or does it suffice with there being some form of organs, so that there is enough cells there for it to be seen as an organ? What's your bet on all this? An argument is the argument of "being able to survive on it's own". We could define a human, by defining the organs by their ability to function, thus make the individual survive. This would mean, an individal with not enough working, human organs that make him survive cannot be considered a being of our specie.

But if we think it that way, a person with an artificial heart cannot be considered human, because an essential human organ that makes him survive, is not there. Seeing, it that way, some fetuses would certainly be considered more human, because they have more amount of human organs than him. Should we then also take into account the size of the organs? Surely a bigger human being is more of a human because he has more human matter, which is what this whole reasoning is based upon. This is actually very logical, although I would think it does go against a lot of peoples beliefs.
 
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Anyone? Human? What? When?

I think it's week 23 or something. ;)

At least, that's the safest lowest barrier that still has some base on reality. I'd say there are a number of requirements.

1 - it has to have a nervous system
2 - it has to have memory
3 - it has to have brain activity
4 - it has to be able to be independent, physically, of its mother

It's pretty similar to the point where a baby is born in most senses, but this is the earliest point where the most fundamental criteria that I can think of are all present.

However, I think self-consciousness develops much later. I've found it very interesting for instance, that only between the age 6-9 does a child start to learn that other people are other people who have different desires and wishes from itself, who have their own identities. Compare this to servere cases of autism, where this doesn't develop (and obviously this is why you can't always tell that a child is autistic until this relatively late age). I think to be able to think of yourself as an individual, you'll have to first realise that other people are individuals. Before this, the child's world is fully egocentric.
 
Depends how soon you throw the kid into the water, at age 4 they have everything to recognize others as individuals. And for me self-consciousness does not relate with finding other people. Humans need interaction with other people only to confirm they exist, otherwise they are in doubt. If you were only existing human you would gain consciousness anyway.
 
Depends how soon you throw the kid into the water, at age 4 they have everything to recognize others as individuals.

Then define individuals ... Usually at this level (dis)agreement is caused by definitions of terms. ;)

And for me self-consciousness does not relate with finding other people. Humans need interaction with other people only to confirm they exist, otherwise they are in doubt. If you were only existing human you would gain consciousness anyway.

Well, I wasn't explicitly stating that seeing yourself as an individual equals self-consciousness. Consciousness and self-consciousness, by the way, are different things, so don't mix them too easily. ;) . (What they are can be discussed, but I'm pretty sure they're not the same.)
 
I mean they see other people as different souls doing things different way then you, individuals in a way they are unique and not replacable.

The difference between consciousness and self-consciousness looks neglible to me in our context, but it can be my lame english as usual.
 
I mean they see other people as different souls doing things different way then you, individuals in a way they are unique and not replacable.

A major point here is not so much doing, as wanting different things. An example of the difference would be if you put two flavors of candy on the table, and you would ask them what the neighbour's kid would take, then they would always choose the flavor they would pick themselves. The difference is not so much the lack of insight at this point, but the fact that you can't teach the kid this fundamental difference at a conceptual level, only have it perhaps memorise this at a case-by-case exception. Can't determine the difference between that someone else has different taste buds from you. Just an example of course. Well, it was something like that. I'm not a huge expert either, but that's how I've understood it from some theory books I borrowed from a pedagogics student a long time ago.

The difference between consciousness and self-consciousness looks neglible to me in our context, but it can be my lame english as usual.

To me, consciousness is being awake or not being awake. Self-consciousness is restricted to consciousness of self, not just everything or even anything in your surroundings ...
 
I think it's week 23 or something. ;)

At least, that's the safest lowest barrier that still has some base on reality. I'd say there are a number of requirements.

1 - it has to have a nervous system
2 - it has to have memory
3 - it has to have brain activity
4 - it has to be able to be independent, physically, of its mother

It's pretty similar to the point where a baby is born in most senses, but this is the earliest point where the most fundamental criteria that I can think of are all present.

Well actually, 2 and 3 are mental properties, which as we have discussed are not what makes a human being.

Also, afaik, children born pre-maturely (such as 23 weeks) survive only because of technology. Does this mean that some technology makes us more human and some makes us less human?
It does actually, as this tech makes us able to grow into a more of a human. But considering 23-weekers would fail on the fourth if it wasn't for tech, but they are considered human when they can depend on it, does this mean that for example 2-weekers would also meet the fourth criteria, if we had technology it could depend on instead? Does this mean that the definition of a human being changes as time and progress goes on?

On the first one, since 2 and 3 are not definitions of human beings, they cannot be used to define a nervous system that is developed enough for the owner of it to be considered human. But if the presence of a CNS is enough, then 16-18 weeks could be an enough age of a fetus for it to be considered having a CNS, since that is when quickening typically happens and I think one needs a CNS for that to happen.

But I have to ask, if I were to replace my CNS with an artifical one, would I cease to be human? Even though I would still be able to have an offspring with a "full" human being?

Now my memories and brain activity would not be human because they are generated on non-human material, and the only thing that makes me a human then is my independence from mother, which is actually more dependent on tech than my independent survivability.
 
A human is keen to find out about his purpose, so you are one ;)


Wow, you know, I know my purpose, and I think I've passed the criteria for non-humanity.

Yeah, actually, screw this discussion and screw the human adjective.

Recognize!

:smile:
 
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