Russia and France had a deal with Saddam...the plot thickens

MfA said:
So France tried to prevent a war which if prevented among other things would have resulted in securing them some oil deals ... US faught a war which among other things secured all Iraqi oil for American companies.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Which US company is getting Iraqi oil in exchange for the removal of Saddam? That is the first I ever heard of this. AFAIK the companies in question are rebuilding infrastructure at the cost of American tax payers. France, Russia and Germany while upholding Saddams tyranny for oil deals did so at the cost of the freedom and lives of Iraqis.
 
Why would it be? It's not like Halliburton actually payed for the war.

Why? Because the oil rigs could have been destroyed which would have cost them a great deal of money. Futhermore there is no reason to believe that they would win a bid for the oil.

And if they would have lifted sanctions, the oil industry in Iraq was nationalized, so it is unlikely that they would have made any money off of it.

What about in the matter of exportation? It could see them making profits off of the oil. Furthermore the accussations have been that the US government was trying to capture the oil for themselves and US oil companies. In which case the government making money from the deal would have been terribly offset by the need to pay for such a war.
 
Iraq woulnt have needed a broker for the oil exports had sanctions been lifted... It could sell directly to refiners like other opec countries... Transportation maybe but I doubt that where the big money is.
 
pax said:
Iraq woulnt have needed a broker for the oil exports had sanctions been lifted... It could sell directly to refiners like other opec countries... Transportation maybe but I doubt that where the big money is.

that would depend on what the terms for the release of the sanction could be. One such scenerio could leave Halliburton in control of exporting the oil.
 
Well if you assume partial lifting of sanctions ya. I wouldnt expect any control of exports (tho maybe imports had saddam remained in power) with lifting of oil sanctions.
 
pax said:
Well if you assume partial lifting of sanctions ya. I wouldnt expect any control of exports (tho maybe imports had saddam remained in power) with lifting of oil sanctions.


that is sort of what i meant. I meant more the guise of lifted sanctions. Of course this is assuming that a conspiracy between haliburton and the US gov actually exist which of course it never did.
 
Clashman said:
Legion said:
of course if this were so it would have been easier and more cost effective to remove sanctions on Iraq then it would have to attack it. :rolleyes:

Why would it be? It's not like Halliburton actually payed for the war.

And if they would have lifted sanctions, the oil industry in Iraq was nationalized, so it is unlikely that they would have made any money off of it.
Haliburton makes money from building infrastructure and selling equipment to support that infrastructure, including oil rigs, refineries, and pipelines.

It doesn't matter if the Iraqi oil industry is nationalized or not--they still need to buy equipment.
 
Which is perfectly understandable as long as a bidding process is undertaken. The only thing we need to keep an eye on is whether Iraqi oil is privatized or not...
 
From what I've heard(On NPR), the question of privatization of the oil industry has been put off until a sovereign government exists in Iraq.
 
Even if that comes after an election it would be a very bad thing... I think the administration knows this and if they really care about peace in the mid east they wont even try to influence any such privatisation. Id be damn interested to know the details if such takes place. But no reason to think the Iraqis are less savy than the Kuwaitis.
 
Willmeister said:
Once a pliant regime is installed, the Iraqi oil infrastructure will be privatized and picked up by outsiders.

would you rather an adversarial regime be installed?
 
RussSchultz said:
Haliburton makes money from building infrastructure and selling equipment to support that infrastructure, including oil rigs, refineries, and pipelines.

It doesn't matter if the Iraqi oil industry is nationalized or not--they still need to buy equipment.

But they wouldn't HAVE to buy from Halliburton if Bush didn't give them the contract.
 
Clashman said:
RussSchultz said:
Haliburton makes money from building infrastructure and selling equipment to support that infrastructure, including oil rigs, refineries, and pipelines.

It doesn't matter if the Iraqi oil industry is nationalized or not--they still need to buy equipment.

But they wouldn't HAVE to buy from Halliburton if Bush didn't give them the contract.

...is there something wrong with this?
 
RussSchultz said:
pax said:
Even if that comes after an election it would be a very bad thing...
That would be up to the Iraqis, now wouldn't it?

would it?

:)

looking @ the way things are currently going and the lack of iraqi voices in the 'legislation' as it exists and the lack of local support for the exiles who have arrived in iraq... the entire process could take a while..

personally I would rather it does take a while than some despot install himself ruler and king... but again we can't be seen to be controlling...
 
The administration already did ask and got from the ruling council that evyerthing was to be privatised cept oil. Likely to impress congress into giving the 20 billion for reconstruction. Not sure who got a good deal here but Id rather nothing had been privatised and the 20 billion be lent.
 
Legion said:
Why? Because the oil rigs could have been destroyed which would have cost them a great deal of money.

They aren't paying for the wells that are on fire. The U.S. government is. Halliburton is MAKING buttloads of money off of this. In fact they're probably a bit pissed that Saddam didn't set more oil wells on fire, because it would have meant even more money for them.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...9/ts_afp/us_oil_iraq_halliburton_031029232740

Futhermore there is no reason to believe that they would win a bid for the oil.

Are you kidding me? This was just posted a couple posts up from here:
Halliburton Co.
$708,770 Total Political Contributions (1999-2002)
5 Percent to Democrats
95 Percent to Republicans
$17,677 Total to George W. Bush (1999-2000)


[Added] VP Dick Cheney: CEO from 1995-2000
The Contract: On March 25, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers awarded Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root the main contract to fight oil well fires and reconstruct oil fields in Iraq. The open-ended contract, which has no specified time or dollar limit, was given to the company without a bidding process. KBR has already announced it will subcontract the actual firefighting operations to Boots & Coots International Well Control Inc. and Wild Well Control Inc., both based in Houston.

Call me cynical, but I doubt Halliburton was too afraid of losing contracts in Iraq.

What about in the matter of exportation? It could see them making profits off of the oil. Furthermore the accussations have been that the US government was trying to capture the oil for themselves and US oil companies. In which case the government making money from the deal would have been terribly offset by the need to pay for such a war.

I think the issue is not simply so much about ownership of oil for their own needs but about control of the oil to assure American dominance. Paul Wolfowitz, way back in 1992, laid out a plan for controlling the Middle East to ensure that no other regional or international power would come to challenge the United States. The war in Iraq is a major success towards securing that doctrine.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/etc/wolf.html
http://www.yale.edu/strattech/92dpg.html
http://www.pnac.info/blog/archives/000045.html#000045
 
First of all, there's not much to privatize outside Oil. Iraq doesn't have many other industries. 95% of the revenue was provided by oil. The telephone company got privatized, whoop-de-do. Both the telephone and electric sector were in such poor condition, there wasn't much to privatize. You're acting like this is the former USSR where a lot of people struck gold by buying up former state industries for next to nothing. It is not.


Iraqi's are more sensitive about the $150 billion in external debt racked up by an unelected dictator. Piling another $20 billion on via an unelected council is not likely to sit well.

All of the non-oil state enterprises, together, probably aren't worth a one billion dollars, so I am not sure your proposition "stop privitization, loan them money, rather than keep privization, give money" is a net gain for the Iraqis.

One only needs to look at the massive success of China in recent years to see that privatization and foreign investment and ownership of dosmetic industries is far better than more IMF/WorldBank loans.

You aren't letting leftwing anti-capitalist sentiment cloud your anti-privatization view are you? You really think letting the power and phone industries remain run by an incompetent and newborn government is better in the shorterm than having modern foreign countries come in and build utility infrastructure? You think giving the IGC a $20 billion loan to do it themselves is going to get the power back on in Baghdad sooner?

After Iraq gets back on their feet, if they want state ownership, they can buy back the utilities with oil revenue, or they can charge high land use rights for pipeline, electric, and other resource usage. This is certainly the better scenario than a loan. With privatization, Iraq gets a modern infrastructure built by foreign countries, with the option to buy back. With a loan, they have to pay back, whether or not the country's infrastructure is working. WIth privatization, if the foreign built utilities suck, they simply won't buy them back, the foreign companies will lose out, as the government funds their own dosmetic projects out of the oil revenues.

Either way, the major risk takers here are the foreign investors, not the Iraqi people. I feel an unelected council assuming loans on behalf of the people is far worse than an unelected council accepting foreign grants and foreign investment to rebuild the country. Ok, so the Iraqi's won't own the foreign infrastructure that is built on their behalf, but it got build on grants and risky investments, and they have the option of granting building rights to local competitors in the future and unfavorable licensing fees or taxes on foreign subsidaries.
 
Clashman, you better find more than $17k to Bush if you want me to believe this is purely payback for campaign contributions or because of Cheney. Boots and Coots is one of the best oil firefighting outfits in the world, and arguably, after putting out 700 oilwells in 1991, they have the experience. I don't see why they wouldn't win any contract on those grounds alone.

Anyone getting a contract in Iraq is going to make a huge profit because of the huge risks involved. If I had to set up computer networks in Iraq, I'd charge $500,000/year to justify the risk that I might be killed.

Reconstruction companies have to pay employees large incentives to get them to fly to, and work in, Iraq, and they themselves must be paid way over "market rate" for contracts that are inherently risky. Who the hell wants to work in, and invest in, a country that right now, is practically lawless and on the edge of chaos? You'd have to be either stupid, OR, guaranteed a large return by the government.
 
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