Radeon 9700 reviews
- Thread starter ram
- Start date
Sorry to bring this thread back up again, but I just had to post this one. 
I posted this some time ago. I think I was pretty spot on about Anand's review. http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15108&highlight=#15108
I posted this some time ago. I think I was pretty spot on about Anand's review. http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15108&highlight=#15108
Dave's review was definately the best one I've seen to date on the R300.
Anand's has to be the biggest joke I've seen since the old Reactor Critical days. Blazing over AA with tiny, tiny screenshots no bigger than a postage stamp and says basically "is the same.. move on.. nothing to see here" added with benchmarks of CPU-bound only conditions followed by 4xAA 4xAF vs 4xAA 16xAF. My knee is red from the slappage.
The last bit at the end is the truth teller-
The same conclusion so many folks predicted this "information source" would provide many months ago.
Anand's has to be the biggest joke I've seen since the old Reactor Critical days. Blazing over AA with tiny, tiny screenshots no bigger than a postage stamp and says basically "is the same.. move on.. nothing to see here" added with benchmarks of CPU-bound only conditions followed by 4xAA 4xAF vs 4xAA 16xAF. My knee is red from the slappage.
The last bit at the end is the truth teller-
The same conclusion so many folks predicted this "information source" would provide many months ago.
Shark, re your quote from Anand.
Sometimes I wonder if that is the right thing to do or not. If a reviewer or someone who believes he is being given the absolutely-correct inside info thinks he may be serving the public well with those kind of comments (re NV30) in a video card review, he may have a case for stating what he did.
The question, obviously, is if Anand believes absolutely what NVIDIA tells him or if his intentions is to serve the public. At times (and cases) it is understandable... at other times you can be derided.
I suppose however that it may be best to just concentrate on the product under review and zip it up.
Sometimes I wonder if that is the right thing to do or not. If a reviewer or someone who believes he is being given the absolutely-correct inside info thinks he may be serving the public well with those kind of comments (re NV30) in a video card review, he may have a case for stating what he did.
The question, obviously, is if Anand believes absolutely what NVIDIA tells him or if his intentions is to serve the public. At times (and cases) it is understandable... at other times you can be derided.
I suppose however that it may be best to just concentrate on the product under review and zip it up.
I think mentioning another product has no business in a review unless that product is out or out within a week or two. Sorry but December is 3/4 months away. If I am going to wait then, then why don't I wait another 3/4 months and get the R350 which could be faster than the NV30. Or wait agian for the NV35 which will probably be faster than the Nv30. Or if I wait a year I can..... See where this is going.
Its all fine if there is another competing product ready and out or very soon. Its pure BS if that product is 2+ months out. There will ALWAYS be something bigger, faster, better out in another 3 months ... all IMHO
Its all fine if there is another competing product ready and out or very soon. Its pure BS if that product is 2+ months out. There will ALWAYS be something bigger, faster, better out in another 3 months ... all IMHO
I disagree, Rev. IF Anand had first hand knowledge, I could understand it somewhat. And, by first hand knowledge I mean NV30 in hand. If on the other hand, all he has is what nVidia (or anyone, for that matter) says, then the product being reviewed should be compared to what is absolutely known. It does EVERYONE involved a disservice to do wnat Anand did, including Anand, his readers, and even nVidia. Oh, yes, and ATI, too.....
Doomtrooper
Veteran
That kind of mentality is crazy, I mean why would I buy the Athlon XP 2600 when I know hammer will be here in 4-5 months....
A: Well because I can use it NOW and buy it NOW, otherwise following that mentality you would never buy anything ,as soon as Nv30 is released ATI will counter with something better and you will be waiting for that product..then Nvdia counters..or 3Dlabs
Its different if they were out at the same time (say a month)..but not two quarters away.
A: Well because I can use it NOW and buy it NOW, otherwise following that mentality you would never buy anything ,as soon as Nv30 is released ATI will counter with something better and you will be waiting for that product..then Nvdia counters..or 3Dlabs
Its different if they were out at the same time (say a month)..but not two quarters away.
Yeah, I know... like I alluded, it all depends on how absolutely confident someone like Anand is re the NV30. And it depends on who needs what desperately or not. After all, I'm sure no one will wait just coz I, as a video card reviewer, think it is best to wait... I mean it would be stupid for anyone to think "Anand says wait... so I will wait!".
Reverend said:
There are a lot of "stupid" people out there Rev.
Besides, a reviewer should be completely impartial. Or at least as impartial as one can get. Talking about a product that might not even make it to store shelves this year as if it's literally in his hands and he knows how it will perform, is a disservice to the readership imo..
It's quite easy to compare NV30 when talking about R300 because it's the same generation, and the "only" card that can be compared when it comes to price, performance and features.
There is no big point in mentioning NV30 in a R300 review but seriously I don't see the big problem either. R300 can stand on it's own feet and the numbers speak for themself.
It is also important to remember readers that are actually interested in how it would compare to NV30 and if they should buy now or wait. I know a lot of NVIDIA owners have a hard time to sit still on this one: They wan't to continue with NVIDIA cards and wait for NV30, but thinks that R300 looks terribly tempting at the present.
Sure there is always a "new one right around the corner", but for most people that are wondering if they should wait or not, it's the company that is important. For a NVIDIA owner it's not really interesting if R350 is our three months after NV30, and for a ATI fan it's not really interesting of NV30 comes out three months after R300.
There is no big point in mentioning NV30 in a R300 review but seriously I don't see the big problem either. R300 can stand on it's own feet and the numbers speak for themself.
It is also important to remember readers that are actually interested in how it would compare to NV30 and if they should buy now or wait. I know a lot of NVIDIA owners have a hard time to sit still on this one: They wan't to continue with NVIDIA cards and wait for NV30, but thinks that R300 looks terribly tempting at the present.
Sure there is always a "new one right around the corner", but for most people that are wondering if they should wait or not, it's the company that is important. For a NVIDIA owner it's not really interesting if R350 is our three months after NV30, and for a ATI fan it's not really interesting of NV30 comes out three months after R300.
Bigus Dickus said:Aside from the numerous sentences that were poorly worded, or the obvious typos that slipped through, it was without a doubt the best review of the bunch.
I like information, and the B3D review had heaps of it!
What's really frustrating is spending your time making corrections and then never seeing those corrections appear in the published article. 8)
Actually, it's not any generation as it's not available yet nor does it have any confirmed, pre-order date or pricing on it at this time.
The problem is there *is* no NV30 at this time. It is vaporware at best until a publicly available p/review can be shown on silicon.
Mentioning something that doesnt exist is my main beef... and causes the Catch-22 that Rev mentioned. You are either banking on what NVIDIA showed you, or banking on what NVIDIA told you. In neither case are you banking on what you have in your hot little hands nor any accountability for "facts" as given.
If this were the case, I'd like to know why similar comments weren't provided concerning the R300 in every GF4 p/review? Time frame and product maturity were surely of comparable nature.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Exactly. It would be different if at LEAST NV30 was already officially launched even on paper, specs and shipping dates were publically announced, etc. Problem is, there is no public, official info on NV30.
I've got a few comments to make about the Tom's Hardware review. One good and one bad.
First I liked that they clearly showed how the Radeon 9700 doesn't buy you much over a GF4 4600 unless you have a fast processor to feed it. So if someone wants to shell out $400 on a 9700 they might as well go all the way and get a fast processor.
What I haven't liked recently about Tom's Hardware is the poor translations to english. Case number one being the title of the 9700 article. "ATi Radeon 9700 PRO - Pretender To The Throne". Pretender??? I hope they meant contender because the benchmarks show the 9700 isn't pretending to be fast. It is fast.
Case number two I'll bring up from a little while ago. The summary of the Parhelia article. "Matrox is back! After long abstinence Matrox wants to shuffle the 3D-Cards again." I'm sure they meant to say absence, because the only time I ever hear the word abstinence used is in regards to sex and nobody likes it in that regard either.
Sorry about the mini rant, but they should at least make the title sound good.
First I liked that they clearly showed how the Radeon 9700 doesn't buy you much over a GF4 4600 unless you have a fast processor to feed it. So if someone wants to shell out $400 on a 9700 they might as well go all the way and get a fast processor.
What I haven't liked recently about Tom's Hardware is the poor translations to english. Case number one being the title of the 9700 article. "ATi Radeon 9700 PRO - Pretender To The Throne". Pretender??? I hope they meant contender because the benchmarks show the 9700 isn't pretending to be fast. It is fast.
Case number two I'll bring up from a little while ago. The summary of the Parhelia article. "Matrox is back! After long abstinence Matrox wants to shuffle the 3D-Cards again." I'm sure they meant to say absence, because the only time I ever hear the word abstinence used is in regards to sex and nobody likes it in that regard either.
Sorry about the mini rant, but they should at least make the title sound good.
Wait a minute; what exactly does Anand mean when he says:
Initial MSRP? I find it somewhat hard to believe that the 9700 will still cost 399$ after a couple of months, as it's equally hard for me to believe that NV30 could launch at less than that. But.....you never know
edit: used the genuine quote.
Initial MSRP? I find it somewhat hard to believe that the 9700 will still cost 399$ after a couple of months, as it's equally hard for me to believe that NV30 could launch at less than that. But.....you never know
edit: used the genuine quote.
I don't have a problem with Anand mentioning the NV30 and advising people to wait IF, and thats a big IF, he is consistent!!! Unfortunately he is not.
By consistent I mean if you are going to mention upcoming hardware in a review, do it in all reviews. So when he reviews the NV30, he should mention and advice people to wait for the R300 refresh, or possibly the R350.
So, I guess I do have a problem with Anand then.
Rev, could you answer a question for me please? You have been in the "scene" for a while now so you might know a bit more than most.... my question is, do Hardware companies use dirty tactics, offer incentives, etc for favourable reviews? And, do reviewers like to kiss ass or what? Cause, Anand is definately kissing some ones ass.
By consistent I mean if you are going to mention upcoming hardware in a review, do it in all reviews. So when he reviews the NV30, he should mention and advice people to wait for the R300 refresh, or possibly the R350.
So, I guess I do have a problem with Anand then.
Rev, could you answer a question for me please? You have been in the "scene" for a while now so you might know a bit more than most.... my question is, do Hardware companies use dirty tactics, offer incentives, etc for favourable reviews? And, do reviewers like to kiss ass or what? Cause, Anand is definately kissing some ones ass.
Oh boy.... what a question.Fuz said:...Rev, could you answer a question for me please? You have been in the "scene" for a while now so you might know a bit more than most.... my question is, do Hardware companies use dirty tactics, offer incentives, etc for favourable reviews? And, do reviewers like to kiss ass or what? Cause, Anand is definately kissing some ones ass.
I have a lot to say about this but I don't have the time right now. Later...
Okay, have some time to burn just before I disappear for my dinner date .
First of all, I don't think someone in Anand's position needs to "kiss ass". Maybe the editor of www.3dvideocards.com or some such "small" website may feel the need to but definitely not Anand.
Anyway, let's waste some time :
A few of the folks that posts here are hypocrites IMO. You've got representatives from fansites (NV- or ATI-based) that says they are either "unbiased" or would like to see unbiased reporting by websites. You've also got folks who want to appear "unbiased" when they most definitely are.
That is the crux of the matter. It has to do with the following.
In general, my opinion is that most websites do not "kiss ass" although this term really can be interpreted in different ways and does, to a certain extent, depend on the "size" of a website - does being friendly to one IHV personnel mean automatically "kissing ass" if being friendly is crucial to a website getting hardware from this IHV? I was friendly to a number of 3dfx personnels back in those days but that was more in order to get real info (rather than hardware, although 3dfx saw fit to "give" me a total of four or five Voodoo5 5500s because I asked for it due to my asking for it for some work AMD was asking me to do where I wanted a non-T&L video card). I am also friendly, this time personally friendly, with Brian Burke yet we both are able to know "professional limits" - I ask Brian to help me out with something and if he can, he will try to do it, but if he can't he'll tell me in no uncertain terms that it is crazy for me to ask him. We call each other "buttheads" but we understand what can and cannot be done for each other.
Also in my experience is that hardware companies do not use "dirty tactics" nor "offer incentives" in order for their products to almost-always receive "favourable" reviews. Being with VoodooExtreme now, which NVIDIA and ATI as well their board partners know is a website with a big gaming audience, have resulted in it being easier for me to get positive responses from NVIDIA, ATI or their board partners - size and website-audience does matter I guess! These companies do not use "dirty tactics" nor "offer incentives" to me - they only expect fair reviews. I also suspect NVIDIA or ATI expects only fair reviews from their respective "fansites" - it is, after all, extremely difficult to pan a product, any new product, nowadays, unless you want to appear as a unreasonable reviewer, which doesn't really help your cause. The difference however is how a particular website may feel "inferior" or feels the need to make a so-so product look really good because they feel they need to in order to improve their relationship with these hardware companies (getting hardware = website survival/relevance).
However, "kissing ass" by websites, "offer incentives" by hardware companies and "fansites" goes both ways, especially true when you are a recognized "fansite". The logic is as follows, as well as the relevance of Anand-mentioning-NV30-in-a-ATI-review. There are websites mentioned here but please take the following as my opinions - I don't want Matt/3DGPU, MikeC/NVNews and Icheumon/Rage3D to hate me for stating my opinions :
If you want to be independent, do not be affiliated with one company, drop the affiliation and all the benefits that come with it. Say what you want, but do not expect special treatment. You want ATI to talk to you, but you have the NVIDIA logo plastered all over your site. Why would ATI send a new Radeon 9700 to, say, 3DGPU or NVNews and expect fair treatment? In case some of you are anal-retentive, let's turn things around and use NVIDIA and Rage3D.com as examples. If Rage3D is promoting NVIDIA's NV30 as the next great thing, thus embarrassing ATI in the process, why should ATI send them one of the first RV350 boards and treat them "special"? Tom's, HardOCP, AnanTech and Rage3D. Based on hits alone, who does not get a board? Rage3D. They only have a board because they are a "fansite". You want to be a unbiased 3DGPU/NVNews/Rage3D editor, great, go work for a site without ATI or NVIDIA product names/recognized-acronyms in the URL and compete with all the other unbiased sites on the web and see what you get from ATI or NVIDIA in the process. IMO, 3DGPU is a "small site" compared to NVNews but I think Matt/Brian Evans wants to hold on to their NVIDIA affiliation because, really, what presence on the web would they have if they don't? Are they willing to let go and, hence, work harder in order to build relationships with various board vendors in order to feed their video card hobby and/or have a presence on the WWW?
If you want to play that kind of game, then stick to that game. It is a two-way street. If your website's URL automatically and inadvertently promotes a hardware company's cause, do not try to claim to be independent - it won't work, even if I may personally feel that Matt or MikeC or Icheumon would do a fair job reviewing video cards regardless of the vendor. Search engines don't tell you that
About Anand mentioning NV30 in a ATI review :
If Car and Driver does an article on the new Ford Explorer and state in the article:
It has more horsepower than the Chevy Tahoe, its biggest competitor.
It has more interior room than the Tahoe, its biggest competitor.
It gets better gas mileage than the Tahoe, its biggest competitor.
It has more comes in more colors than the Tahoe, its biggest competitor.
... are they fan boys?
If they state :
Chevy has a new SUV coming that promises more horsepower?
Chevy has a new SUV coming that promises more room?
Chevy has a new SUV coming that promises more gas mileage?
After talking to Chevy, is that OK to do with out the car? What if this SUV has been profiled by Motor Trend, 4 Wheel and Off-road and Truck Illustrated already and is public knowledge. Should they not mention it until they talk to Chevy or Chevy sends them one? They can go to the Chevy website and find out the specs and compare them too. Right? If Chevy refuses to return emails and calls, should they not write the article at all? What is the difference with graphics cards?
I'm sorry if the above appears to not answer Fuz's question but I think there are more "hidden" answers to Fuz's "cut and dry" question.
.First of all, I don't think someone in Anand's position needs to "kiss ass". Maybe the editor of www.3dvideocards.com or some such "small" website may feel the need to but definitely not Anand.
Anyway, let's waste some time :
A few of the folks that posts here are hypocrites IMO. You've got representatives from fansites (NV- or ATI-based) that says they are either "unbiased" or would like to see unbiased reporting by websites. You've also got folks who want to appear "unbiased" when they most definitely are.
That is the crux of the matter. It has to do with the following.
In general, my opinion is that most websites do not "kiss ass" although this term really can be interpreted in different ways and does, to a certain extent, depend on the "size" of a website - does being friendly to one IHV personnel mean automatically "kissing ass" if being friendly is crucial to a website getting hardware from this IHV? I was friendly to a number of 3dfx personnels back in those days but that was more in order to get real info (rather than hardware, although 3dfx saw fit to "give" me a total of four or five Voodoo5 5500s because I asked for it due to my asking for it for some work AMD was asking me to do where I wanted a non-T&L video card). I am also friendly, this time personally friendly, with Brian Burke yet we both are able to know "professional limits" - I ask Brian to help me out with something and if he can, he will try to do it, but if he can't he'll tell me in no uncertain terms that it is crazy for me to ask him. We call each other "buttheads" but we understand what can and cannot be done for each other.
Also in my experience is that hardware companies do not use "dirty tactics" nor "offer incentives" in order for their products to almost-always receive "favourable" reviews. Being with VoodooExtreme now, which NVIDIA and ATI as well their board partners know is a website with a big gaming audience, have resulted in it being easier for me to get positive responses from NVIDIA, ATI or their board partners - size and website-audience does matter I guess! These companies do not use "dirty tactics" nor "offer incentives" to me - they only expect fair reviews. I also suspect NVIDIA or ATI expects only fair reviews from their respective "fansites" - it is, after all, extremely difficult to pan a product, any new product, nowadays, unless you want to appear as a unreasonable reviewer, which doesn't really help your cause. The difference however is how a particular website may feel "inferior" or feels the need to make a so-so product look really good because they feel they need to in order to improve their relationship with these hardware companies (getting hardware = website survival/relevance).
However, "kissing ass" by websites, "offer incentives" by hardware companies and "fansites" goes both ways, especially true when you are a recognized "fansite". The logic is as follows, as well as the relevance of Anand-mentioning-NV30-in-a-ATI-review. There are websites mentioned here but please take the following as my opinions - I don't want Matt/3DGPU, MikeC/NVNews and Icheumon/Rage3D to hate me for stating my opinions :
If you want to be independent, do not be affiliated with one company, drop the affiliation and all the benefits that come with it. Say what you want, but do not expect special treatment. You want ATI to talk to you, but you have the NVIDIA logo plastered all over your site. Why would ATI send a new Radeon 9700 to, say, 3DGPU or NVNews and expect fair treatment? In case some of you are anal-retentive, let's turn things around and use NVIDIA and Rage3D.com as examples. If Rage3D is promoting NVIDIA's NV30 as the next great thing, thus embarrassing ATI in the process, why should ATI send them one of the first RV350 boards and treat them "special"? Tom's, HardOCP, AnanTech and Rage3D. Based on hits alone, who does not get a board? Rage3D. They only have a board because they are a "fansite". You want to be a unbiased 3DGPU/NVNews/Rage3D editor, great, go work for a site without ATI or NVIDIA product names/recognized-acronyms in the URL and compete with all the other unbiased sites on the web and see what you get from ATI or NVIDIA in the process. IMO, 3DGPU is a "small site" compared to NVNews but I think Matt/Brian Evans wants to hold on to their NVIDIA affiliation because, really, what presence on the web would they have if they don't? Are they willing to let go and, hence, work harder in order to build relationships with various board vendors in order to feed their video card hobby and/or have a presence on the WWW?
If you want to play that kind of game, then stick to that game. It is a two-way street. If your website's URL automatically and inadvertently promotes a hardware company's cause, do not try to claim to be independent - it won't work, even if I may personally feel that Matt or MikeC or Icheumon would do a fair job reviewing video cards regardless of the vendor. Search engines don't tell you that
About Anand mentioning NV30 in a ATI review :
If Car and Driver does an article on the new Ford Explorer and state in the article:
It has more horsepower than the Chevy Tahoe, its biggest competitor.
It has more interior room than the Tahoe, its biggest competitor.
It gets better gas mileage than the Tahoe, its biggest competitor.
It has more comes in more colors than the Tahoe, its biggest competitor.
... are they fan boys?
If they state :
Chevy has a new SUV coming that promises more horsepower?
Chevy has a new SUV coming that promises more room?
Chevy has a new SUV coming that promises more gas mileage?
After talking to Chevy, is that OK to do with out the car? What if this SUV has been profiled by Motor Trend, 4 Wheel and Off-road and Truck Illustrated already and is public knowledge. Should they not mention it until they talk to Chevy or Chevy sends them one? They can go to the Chevy website and find out the specs and compare them too. Right? If Chevy refuses to return emails and calls, should they not write the article at all? What is the difference with graphics cards?
I'm sorry if the above appears to not answer Fuz's question but I think there are more "hidden" answers to Fuz's "cut and dry" question.