R8500 20% Faster Than GF4 Ti4600?

[Dave Baumann]

These are the new "offical drivers" anyhow since we are on the topic I thought I would post them. ATi seems to be dropping new drivers at a high rate. Hopefully these are good.

Oh F*CK!

Time to start the benchmarks again...

 

[Doomtrooper]

Oh F*CK!

Time to start the benchmarks again...

Ahh isn't 3D benchmarking fun

 

[Sabastian]

Oh F*CK!

Time to start the benchmarks again...

From what I have read on the net here these particular drivers suck, bad. It doesn't make any sence why ATi would release drivers as official that don't work as good as some beta. Have fun with the benches.

Sabastian

 

[Entropy]

Re: Too funny

Furtunately, we have ppl that thinks the other way around

Priceless comment nAo.
And true.

Entropy

 

[LeStoffer]

Isn't it amazing/odd that there is so many replies to this thread?

Ooops, I just made it go top again.

I'm so sorry

Regards, LeStoffer

 

[MouseAnony]

Just a couple of ideas:
If ATi can manage to cut out 20% of a scene or more, without drastically reducing visual quality and massively boosting performance, is that a bad thing? Heck, that would give you some free (2x quality, perhaps) FSAA, or max anisotropy, or better textures. Hardly cheating if the output looks good.

Maybe. But ATI will never want to admit they developt this tech of coz... So they can't include it in their drivers.

And of coz they won't license their tech to other GPU companies. Nvidia won't use ATI tech anyway.

However, as I have said many times game developers are VERY interested in their tech. As I have also said, their achievement is remarkable but what they did with it is not!

You're probably going to ask why they did what they did instead of following your suggestion? Well think of it. Do you really think they would have had a chance if they said our drivers cut off 20% of the scene info so it's a lot faster but you can up the detail etc so it's better overal. Nvidia would have killed them.

Not fair maybe but that's life. As I have said many times, I hate Nvidia's guts but they are they are becoming a Microsoft so what can we do?

In any case, I'm not sure how well your suggestion would work. True visual quality doesn't decrease that badly but it does decrease. There is a limit to what changing settings will do. In the end it will become worse. Think of a JPEG. You can decrease quality and thereby increase res while maitaining the same size but there is an optimal tradeoff between res and saved quality and it depends on many factors what that is.

I think this is similar.

If someone had really made a good alternative product maybe things would be better. But the fact it it's like OS/2. Some people say it's better but it's actually crap. They only say it's better because it's an alternative. I suppose it's hardly surprising given the money they have.

As far as the conspiracy goes, I think others have covered it well enough. The Radeon8500 is a great card. It's really cheap for what it offers. If you want to drop $290 for a GF4 4400 or $390 for a GF4 4600, be my guest. You'll get a great card. I bought my 8500 soon after it was released, through Dell, for $210.

If you had a brain you would realise I never suggested you get GF4 4400 instead of a Rad 8500. However for people choosing between a cheaper G3 Ti200 and a more expensive Rad 8500 (like Einne) the choice is clear. The G3 Ti200 is cheap for what it offers. The Rad 8500 is expensive for what it offers. Since it performs at about a G4 MX440 level, you should expect to buy it for that (which isn't possible).

 

[MouseAnony]

Re: Too funny

Be prepared for this kind of drivel, on every forum or message board there is always someone that thinks ATI stinks and Nvidia is God

Actually if you had read all my msgs, you would realise I hate Nvidia. But it doesn't mean I would claim another product is better when it isn't. That's the trouble with some people is just because they dislike something they put down it's products unnecessarily.

I never clearly stated this b4 but I prefer STmicro over Via/S3 over ATI over Matrox over Nvidia. So Nvidia is at the bottom of my list. They have by far done the worst things of the lot and are really destroying the industry (as I have stated b4).

But their products are still the only real mid-high end option so what can we do? If ATI would get serious (and a lot of money) maybe we would get resonable competition. But they haven't....

 

[MouseAnony]

Re: Too funny

So, it's a big conspiration, ATi and a lot of reviewers cooperating on getting nice reviews out for ATi. So now that these reviewers all agreed upon publishing cheat numbers, why waste time to create a special driver for them, why not just give them the numbers to publish instead?

Because reviewers and ATI don't want to technically lie. They want to make sure they never really lie. If they just give numbers they will be totally lying. Oh and BTW, as I said b4 it's only a very small number of reviewers. Most of the reviewers are not using the special drivers. They are just using the old 'buggy' drivers.

And drop the BS that the newer drivers are slower, they aren't. I've seen them consistently improve, helping performance up in both games and in my own demos.

Show me the review which proves this from a reliable site! I could say my Kyro II is giving me 1000fps at 1600 with the new drivers if I want to. But the fact is my card does not which is why no one else claims this.

I suspect Doomtrooper may actually be right, you're Nam_ng behind another name, looking into your profile it looks like you don't really want people to know who you are.

I don't even who that is. I'm very new to this forum as you will see by my posts. I really like it when someone claims you are someone else exclusively on your viewpoints when everything else points otherwise (my English is supposedly a lot better).

I might as well claim Bushy is Mr. Blair becoz they both believe the way to bring world peace is by killing anyone who doesn't agree with them.

But no one has these "special drivers that increase performance by 4x"

HAIL THE NEW GOD OF THIS WORLD WHO KNOW'S EVERYTHING GOING ON IN THIS WORLD!!!

I searched the whole codebase... not one occurance of #define SPECIAL_DRIVER_THAT_INCREASES_PERFORMANCE_BY_4X

I assume you are a senior level code developer then? Because you must realise that these drivers were developed quite a while ago (based on the current drivers at the time) and are seperate from the real drivers. They aren't updated (except the version info is updated some times so reviewers can claim a new version). They are controlled quite tightly which isn't too hard because not many people need to have access to them. (They did not bother to optimise these special drivers so the quality loss was minimal because it was not necessary). I won't even bother to comment on "SPECIAL_DRIVER_THAT_INCREASES_PERFORMANCE_BY_4X" since it proves you don't want to talk seriously if you make such a ridicolous comment.

First, how would the driver determine what information to throw away?

I don't know (I'm not a software developer and don't really know much tech info on 3D graphics honestly) however as I have said, what they have done in their old 'buggy' drivers (not the special drivers) is very good work and many game developers are interested in it.

Secondly, if you are referring to the "Quake/Quake" issue, that problem has been resolved

This was one of their first attempts at driver cheating and I think the success gave them a lot of confidence to continue.

 

[Dave Baumann]

HAIL THE NEW GOD OF THIS WORLD WHO KNOW'S EVERYTHING GOING ON IN THIS WORLD!!!

Guess what Mouse - he's in a far better qualified position to talk than you are with your spurious drivel. Please desist - either qualify your claims with facts or stop, its getting tiresome.

 

[MouseAnony]

Oooooh, I see, only these small site got good driver - ATi didn't think about supplying them to larger sites that have a wider coverage!

Yes obviously. Because if they gave them to sites which didn't totally love them beyond reason. The reviewers had to be totally comfortable with using them and trustworthy beyond doubt. Kind of hard on reliable (or any big) site isn't it? BTW you aren't a big site IMHO however I will say you at least aren't psychotic ATI lover (so you didn't get the drivers).

Anand's GF4 review used the current 'official beta drivers' (6025) for the Radeon, and there are known issues with them. The much talked about 'High Poly Bug' is in fact a texture thrashing issue which is slowing down OpenGL applications which has been resolved in later development driver releases (some of which have been leaked, but none have come officially). The testing which I have undertaken shows Serious Sam to be twice as fast in DirectX at 1600x1200x32 (Extreme GFX settings) than it is in OpenGL!

Okay but still no reviews then?

AFAIK the issue that JC was talking about is a separate issue to that of the Texture thrashing issue.

In a fashion I suppose you're right. JC's issue has nothing to do with the old fast 'buggy' drivers which dumped info. However the reason the card has slowed down a lot is because now that the drivers aren't dumping info anymore it's true performance is revealed. The R200 was never properly complete as I said before so it's really slow. It also has other problems because of this such as the JC issue.

Yes I read - I've read your same claims a number of times and you have yet to back up with any proof; prove that these 'special drivers' exist, or stop posting - you are getting tiresome.

I can't because I DO NOT have access to them (not surprising is it?).

However ask someone who trusts you in the industry and they will
probably tell you that they think they do but very few people have seen them. I can prove that the new drivers are a lot worse than the old drivers (and already have even if you have you 'reason' for this).

You can do it yourself by checking the performance on the offical beta drivers. If you find the performance is still very good, try comparing with two exact same high quality monitors etc side by side with the exact same settings with a GeForce3 or 4 or Kyro or something the overall quality of the rendering (don't take into account FPS).

It now falls on you to either show at least two reviews from reliable sites with proof that even newer official beta drivers perform up to the old standard.

I said official drivers becoz it's possible ATI has 'accidently' reintroduced the 'bug' in their unofficial drivers. I'm pretty sure they won't in official however if I see a lot of reviewers complaining about display problems, as happened with the old drivers (the reason Anand used the new beta drivers instead of the old better performing drivers is because, as stated on the site, they fix quality issues) I will change my mind.

Guess what Mouse - he's in a far better qualified position to talk than you are with your spurious drivel. Please desist - either qualify your claims with facts or stop, its getting tiresome.

Oh really?

FACT: I NEVER SUGGESTED THAT I KNEW SOMETHING WHICH WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ANY HUMAN TO KNOW

FACT: He suggested that he knew everything which goes on in the world which is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY HUMAN TO KNOW

FACT: I've used facts. You still haven't disproven my facts (it did have color, texture and fog problems with old drivers; it is slower with the new official drivers which don't have these problems)

FACT: You are asking me to prove something which is impossible for me. Obviously I don't have these drivers (didn't I make this clear?) so I can't improve they exist by offering them to you. Obviously I can't give you any reliable news sites which claim these drivers existed (if any reliable news site had claimed these drivers exist I wouldn't even need to mention it here). Obviously I can't tell you of my many contacts. Obviously I can't prove the R200 was never complete by showing your the official design plan or the the r200 official design plan, since I obviously don't have access to it. Obviously I can't give any reliable news sites which have said it since no one is willing to publish this info (and if they had I wouldn't need to say it). However, what I can is use my above facts. Unless you can reliably prove that the Rad 8500 can still perform very well with new official drivers (which don't have the texture, fog and color problems of the old drivers and with relatively equal rendering quality as the G3, G4, Kyro etc) then you haven't disproven my main point. The Rad 8500 is not performing well at the moment (including with at least one future game D3). Whatever the reason you want to believe causes it's up to you. I don't care if you believe my reason or not (I've given my proposed reason). But it falls down to the Ti200 being a better choice then the Rad 8500 at the moment which was my original hypothesis.

Anyway you're right. I will desist since it's obvious no one here is going to believe even my most basic hypothesis (Ti200 is a better choice then the Rad LE8500) despite the undisproven facts (that the Rad 8500 is performing poorly at the moment). I'm leaving this group since it's saddened me. Honestly, it's this kind of attitude (love the alternative, i.e. ATI above everything else) which is allowing Nvidia to destroy the industry!!!! I hate Nvidia and I hate you. You're helping Nvidia to destroy the 3D graphics industry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. I've been in contact with a few people I know to see if it is likely to ever become public. They say def not. In fact, they've reliably heard that thanks to the game developers help, ATI has greatly improved their info removing drivers 'bug'. They've supposedly changed it so it only cuts between 5-15% so performance increase is less but quality is virtually identical (it requires an extensive test to notice). So we may see the drivers coming back somewhat in terms of performance (when ATI reintroduces the bug). Also, they've managed to improve on JC's issue. It works but still quite slowly. Of coz, it will never perform that fast but they can likely improve it.

Well GOOD BYE. For good!!!

 

[mboeller]

Guess what Mouse - he's in a far better qualified position to talk than you are with your spurious drivel. Please desist - either qualify your claims with facts or stop, its getting tiresome.

Why should he stop? Every forum needs an clown like him. At the moment I find his postings quite amusing. When this "sensation" wanes I will overlook his postings.

 

[Gubbi]

Re: Too funny

Well GOOD BYE. For good!!!

Thank God.

Cheers

 

[Don't Ask]

Mr. pre-pubescent really thinks that having a shitty attitude will make everyone shut up and respect him. I've always hated little kids for that reason

 

[jb]

MouseAnony,

in this day in age we get a lot of post that come off sounding very simular to yours that are nothing more than FUD. Not saying that yours was or was not. But the B3D group lives and dies by facts and data. You provided some facts, but did not have the data to back them up. I know there are some things that you could not have given, but at least some data would have help your claims..

 

[Nappe1]

Re: Too funny

Priceless comment nAo.
And true.

Entropy

well, have everyone forgot the ppl that want Alternative 3D and thinks that both suck.

hmmh... I wonder who might be a good example??

 

[Randell]

What soomeone with a product, like SiS ?

 

[Doomtrooper]

Re: Too funny

well, have everyone forgot the ppl that want Alternative 3D and thinks that both suck.

hmmh... I wonder who might be a good example??

Hey I want Matrox to be a player too , heck I live like 2 hours away from Matrox and 2 hours from ATI. They could merge a make one wicked card

 

[Doomtrooper]

P.S. I've been in contact with a few people I know to see if it is likely to ever become public. They say def not. In fact, they've reliably heard that thanks to the game developers help, ATI has greatly improved their info removing drivers 'bug'. They've supposedly changed it so it only cuts between 5-15% so performance increase is less but quality is virtually identical (it requires an extensive test to notice). So we may see the drivers coming back somewhat in terms of performance (when ATI reintroduces the bug). Also, they've managed to improve on JC's issue. It works but still quite slowly. Of coz, it will never perform that fast but they can likely improve it.

Well GOOD BYE. For good!!!

Omg now I've heard it all, too bad your leaving..your kind of funny in a twisted sort of way.

 

[Reverend]

Actually, Mouse could be telling the truth, you know.

I mean, what if I were to say the Voodoo4 and Voodoo5 had/has HW T&L but it was broken so badly that 3dfx had to disable it entirely but later on decided to give it a try with the help of some drivers...??

 

[EvilTwin]

And what if the refrigerator light doesn't go out when you close the door ? And everything is invisible when you are not looking ? What if we are all in the matrix ?