PS3 Strategy/Confidence Retrospective

[AlphaWolf]

If you have a PS3 though, you can happily buy BRD movies knowing they'll still play on it even if you later get an HD DVD player and HD DVD movies. It's not like a stand-alone player where it'll take up shelf space for no other purpose. The only situation where that's a bad move is if in 10 years time your PS3 dies and there's no alternative to play your old BRDs. But that's not much different from all those VHS tapes you used to have. What's the life expectancy of any film format?

I still have lots of VHS tapes around, mostly they still work just fine (some a few wear spots from use), I can even go out and buy a new player for them for $50 or less.

I wouldn't have any qualms buying BRDs if I had a PS3, even without an HD set, because they don't cost much more and when I do upgrade the TV, I'll enjoy the benefit.

I would. I collect the media, I don't want to have it on some inconvenient format where I have to wheel out a special player for a few items. When HD players are <$100 I'll probably buy several of them (one for each TV), but until then I'm happy to wait.

 

[tcrews]

You have some links to reviews of these players?

Target selling the Ventura
http://www.target.com/Venturer-HD-D...48641?ie=UTF8&index=target&rh=k:hd dvd&page=1

The press release for the Integra

Integra Introduces its First HD DVD Player at 2007 CEDIA Expo

DENVER (9/5/07) -- Integra announced the introduction of the DHS-8.8, the company's first HD DVD player, at the 2007 CEDIA Expo here today. This player has been designed specifically to meet the needs of the custom installer, and to fully exploit the potential of high-definition HD DVD content. It is among the first HD DVD players to enable transfer of high-bit-rate audio content via HDMI version 1.3a.

The DHS-8.8 is designed as an ideal source component for use with Integra's 2007 A/V receiver and preamplifier/processor range, which also include HDMI version 1.3a capabilities. In combination, these components are an ideal platform for high-definition 1080p video images, including Deep Color™ technology for improved color tones and finer color gradation. Additionally, HDMI 1.3a allows streaming of the new lossless surround sound formats, Dolby® TrueHD and DTS®-HD Master Audio, as well as two high-bit-rate "lossy" formats, Dolby® Digital Plus and DTS®-HD High Resolution Audio.

The Integra DHS-8.8 HD-DVD player also features the capability to support playback at different frame rates, including 24 frames per second, which is the native frame rate of the original sources for most HD content. This ensures that the user will be able to experience the playback of films recorded to HD DVD with the smoothest, most stable reproduction possible.

The DHS-8.8 features onboard HQV Reon VX video processing, currently recognized as the leading video processing technology in the home theater industry. This allows the player to provide precise video scaling to 720p, 1080i or 1080p output from both HD-DVD and standard definition DVD sources, delivering video at the native resolution of the video display device and stantially reducing video noise and distortion. For component video output, the player incorporates an Analog Devices 297 MHz/12-bit NSV video DAC that support 4x oversampling for outstanding reproduction with analog-based displays.

The DHS-8.8 features Wolfson and Burr-Brown 192 kHz/24-bit audio DACs for conversion of audio sources for analog output via the 2-channel or 5.1-channel analog outputs. It also includes a bi-directional RS-232 port for integration with home automation and control systems. Finally, the player includes a rear-panel Ethernet port to make use of the web-based connectivity allowed for in the HD-DVD standard, including access to additional content from movie studios. This feature also provides installers and users with the ability to easily download any future firmware updates.

The DHS-8.8 will carry a suggested retail price of $1099, and will be available in the fourth quarter of 2007.

Amazon link for pre-order Samsung
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-BD-UP5000-HD-DVD-Blu-Ray-Player/dp/B000VDG0UK/

User review of the LG BH200

OK, here goes a quick review.

My system is a 61" DLP LED Samsung set w/ Onkyo 605 receiver. Connection is HDMI to the Onkyo and then HDMI to my Sammy.

Please note that I have never owned a standalone HD format player before. I do have an HTPC with HDMI out to my set and have 'previewed' some HDDVD and BR rips previously.

*HDDVD and Blu-Ray PQ are excellent.

*The player is slow to start up a new disc, compared to the PC playing a disc ripped to the HD. This is to be expected of course. BR seems to start slightly faster. This may be because it is earlier in the "what kind of disc is this?" sequence that the player is running. It takes forever to start a standard def DVD as well, so there you go. UPDATED: Actual startup times posted below.

*The player will re-compress the new formats to DTS on the fly. Never heard of this before. Guess since it does not have 5.1 analog outs this is a compromise. It will send the DTS out the digital output or HDMI. Since my HDMI is going to a new receiver that supports the new codecs and I pass everything to it directly I have no idea how good the re-compression is.

*All the audio bitstreams passed to my REC were detected and decoded. (PCM5.1, DD+, etc) Dolby TrueHD was NOT passed to my REC as expected. LG has already said this will take a firmware update. UPDATED: DTS-HD-MA was confirmed to pass by LG but so far has not been tested AFAIK.

*The player (at this point) does not have any option to output 24p. May not be the case. See Below. The player definitely does not have an option to 'force' 24p.

*The network portion of the player does not seem to have a "check for new firmware" type option. It has basic net settings and login and password fields. I don't have the book so I have no idea what this is for.

*The standard DVD output is GODAWFUL. I don't plan to use this as a DVD player so I don't care, but be forewarned. Yes, It's that bad. UPDATED: Others report that the SD quality is not nearly as bad as I think it is. Read below for more opinions.

*There is no "zoom" feature. It handles all the aspect ratio stuff automagically and it does not appear to be configurable other than setting the output AR of the display. If it is standard def, NON-Anamorphic, widescreen material, ie. Extras, it is window boxed with bars on all sides I am afraid. No way around that on this player it seems.

*The remote is **** and slow to respond even in the native menu of the player.

*The menus resemble those on the BH100. (From the screens I've seen in this forum.)

*Navigating the HD disc menus is choppy and slow. Again, I am used to the PC and PowerDVD but it seems very clunky. It works, but just feels like a gui running on a machine who's processor is at 100%. HDDVD seems a little worse that BR in this respect but they are both slow.

Anything else? Oops...forgot the Onkyo
press release from Onkyo.com

08/09/07 - ONKYO USA has announced the launch of its first HD-DVD player, the DV-HD805. This player has been introduced to realize the potential of high-definition HD DVD content. It is also one of the first HD DVD players to take advantage of high-bit-rate audio streaming via HDMI version 1.3a. The DV-HD805 will be available in the fall of 2007.

The DV-HD805 is designed to partner with Onkyo’s 2007 A/V receiver line-up. Both the HD DVD player and the A/V receivers feature HDMI version 1.3a connections, making the combination of these components the perfect platform for high-definition 1080p video images. It also nicely complements Onkyo’s A/V receivers by streaming of the new lossless surround sound formats, Dolby® TrueHD and DTS®-HD Master Audio, as well as two “lossy” formats, Dolby® Digital Plus and DTS®-HD High Resolution Audio.

The Onkyo DV-HD805 has the capability to support different frame rates, including playback at 24 frames per second, which is the native frame rate of the original sources for most HD content. This ensures that the user will be able to experience the playback of films recorded to HD DVD with the smoothest, most stable reproduction possible.

HDMI version 1.3a allows the DV-HD805 to offer the full potential of high-definition 1080p video (the native resolution of HD DVD discs). Furthermore, HDMI version 1.3a enables Deep Color™ technology to improve color tones and achieve finer color gradation. Also, when connected with the new Onkyo HDMI version 1.3a A/V receivers, the DV-HD805 is capable of high-bit-rate audio streaming output. Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio surround sound codecs enable bit-for-bit reproduction of the studio master meaning that this player is capable of the highest clarity and most advanced realism from movie soundtracks. It also has the capability to provide Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio bit stream data.

HD DVD specifications allow for the inclusion of web-enabled network connectivity to develop new and unique content such as additional materials and bonus features. In addition to downloading content, HD DVD users also have the ability to upload content and interact with providers, to participate in interactive polls for example. Compared to other media formats, HD DVD is advanced in this capacity. The DV-HD805 includes an Ethernet port to allow users access to these capabilities, as well as enable the user to easily download any future firmware updates.

Recognized as the leading video processing technology in the home theater industry, the DV-HD805’s onboard HQV Reon VX video processing chipset provides exceptionally precise video scaling (to 720p, 1080i or 1080p). When used with the standard-definition DVD format, HQV Reon VX enables viewers to enjoy superior video quality at the native resolution of the connected high-definition display. HQV Reon VX processing also eliminates or substantially reduces video noise for improved video reproduction.

The DV-HD805 will be available in the fall of 2007 at a suggested retail price of $899.

But this was in response to someone saying "no other Hardware manufacturers were joining in HD DVD's camp.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What do you do with VHS then? Do you still use that as your primary recorder? What about when you get an HDD recorder? Eventually your VHS media is going to need a standalone, single purpose player. Now if you already have a PS3 for BRDs, why would you wheel it out every once in a while to watch a BRD, rather than have it connected and used for its other features? If you only bought a PS3 for movies and don't touch it for any other reason, fair enough. But that'd be a tragic waste! It thus has a much better claim to a position in the AV rack/stack than a VHS player, especially when it can be working as a digital recorder and replace that function of VHS.

 

[scooby_dooby]

If you have a PS3 though, you can happily buy BRD movies knowing they'll still play on it even if you later get an HD DVD player and HD DVD movies. It's not like a stand-alone player where it'll take up shelf space for no other purpose. The only situation where that's a bad move is if in 10 years time your PS3 dies and there's no alternative to play your old BRDs. But that's not much different from all those VHS tapes you used to have. What's the life expectancy of any film format?

I wouldn't have any qualms buying BRDs if I had a PS3, even without an HD set, because they don't cost much more and when I do upgrade the TV, I'll enjoy the benefit.

I don't find this argument very compelling, for the simple reason that most households have multiple DVD players located in different rooms.

So, if you buy a bunch of BR media, and then HD-DVD becomes the dominant format, you would have media that can only play on one of your players, but not on the other 2 or 3 HD-DVD players you have in the house. The consumer would be forced to spend extra money buying dual-format players, in order to ensure his BR discs could be played on any player in the house, OR buy two copies of every movie, either way it's a waste of money.

 

[rbushner]

The BRDs and HD-DVDs I've gotten have cost substantially more than DVDs. I buy HDM, but not near like I buy DVD's, I can buy three DVDs for the price of one major BluRay, and there is no worry about finding a player in 6 years. I do worry about those sorts of things when a movie is close to $30.

I would be surprised if either HD optical format gets any substantial foothold in the industry. The HDM battle is looking alot like the SACD/DVD-A battle, a battle which the masses don't care about.

As far as this thread topic goes, PS3 gives more to BluRay than BluRay will ever give to PS3. PS3 was the shoe-in, but instead it came late and overpriced, all to pack in a BluRay movie player. Sony definitely put BluRay as more important to them than the PS3. I think Sony will still come out OK, the PS3 and even BluRay will eventually be profitable, but the hopes of overtaking DVD and/or maintaining the console crown are completely out of the question.

 

[AlphaWolf]

What do you do with VHS then? Do you still use that as your primary recorder? What about when you get an HDD recorder? Eventually your VHS media is going to need a standalone, single purpose player. Now if you already have a PS3 for BRDs, why would you wheel it out every once in a while to watch a BRD, rather than have it connected and used for its other features? If you only bought a PS3 for movies and don't touch it for any other reason, fair enough. But that'd be a tragic waste! It thus has a much better claim to a position in the AV rack/stack than a VHS player, especially when it can be working as a digital recorder and replace that function of VHS.

There's enough VHS content around that maintaining limited support for now is still a must for me at least, I have a combo dvd/vcr, so its not single purpose. Lots of people still use VHS as their primary recording medium and probably will for a while yet so if someone brings a tape over, being able to play it for them is nice.

If I did have a ps3, I would guarantee in 5 years it will be in a closet right on top of my ps2 regardless of whether BR wins the format war or not. I'm not one to pull out old games and play them, I barely have time to play through all the new games I want to, I don't foresee that changing. I do expect that set top boxes will become better BR players than the PS3 in less than 5 years (if they don't I think that's going to be a nightmare for Sony).

 

[tha_con]

*This thread was spawned from the NPD thread.*



Holy moly, some people can spin anything!!

Sony was arrogant yes, why? They actually thought they could sell a $600 console!!

Call that whatever you will, arrogance, overconfidence, stupidity, whatever label you want to slap onto it... it's all the same thing. The entire premise of their strategy is built around over-confidence/arrogance (err...I mean lack of conservatism ).

yenno, things break [/arrogance]

 

[-tkf-]

But this was in response to someone saying "no other Hardware manufacturers were joining in HD DVD's camp.

You can drop your arrogance, i read the AVS forum on a regular basis and your players weren´t mentioned, that is why i asked. If they really were released i might have missed them, that is why i asked.

LG BH200 is a combo player and the review makes the player look bad. The Toshiba (at least the 1080p versions) should be better than that.

 

[scooby_dooby]

yenno, things break [/arrogance]

Sounds like you're unclear about the definition of the word.

Arrogance: : an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims

 

[tcrews]

Sorry if you thought it was arrogance in my post, you asked for links and I posted links for each item I mentioned.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Come on now, I mean, I can understand your points, but clearly you aren't just pressing your lips to the cheeks of MS because you like them, right?

I'm done with you.

If you want to have an adult conversation let me know, I'm not wasting my time reading that angry little rant...

 

[tha_con]

I'm done with you.

If you want to have an adult conversation let me know, I'm not wasting my time reading that angry little rant...

You know what, you're right. I apologize. The insult was born of the comment you made in reference to my intelligence and not 'understanding' the word arrogant. However, your post comes off more as "hey, it's easy to point a finger at Sony and say they are arrogant because everyone hates them, but doing the same to MS would be inherently difficult".

I'd be more impressive if you pointed out how MS is basically on a fast route to 'crushing' the gaming industry at the moment, and doing everything that is wrong with the PC market (i.e. buying out smaller companies, etc).

I just didn't see much substance in your original post other than 'hey it's easy to point this finger, it doesn't require much work or afterthought'.

That's all.

 

[Deleted member 7537]

Of course Sony was arrogant, they had 70% of the market, usually when you are at the top you tend to forget about the consumers, like MS forgot about us when they made DX10 win vista only or when Apple started to sell us overpriced MP3 players.

Sony made it's move, they included BR in the ps3 and right now this and the lack of software is making ps3 a failure, but remember that this is a really long race, and nothing has been decided yet.

As for the future, i think sony has made the right move, right now they are mass producing bluray players for the ps3, this will help production costs go down, so when the real war begins between standalone players, bluray players will be much cheaper, probably not as cheaper as an HD-DVD player but affordable to any consumer (150-250$). If they keep the studio support and with millions of PS3's sold around the world, Toshiba will need a miracle to win the HD format war.

Personally, i don't care who wins, Internet is the future, it will be the distribution line for everything, music,games,movies,ect... Hopefully in a few years instead of going to the cinema or to a BlockBuster we will turn on our 500$ 60" SuperFull HD TV's and buy any movie that we want.

PD: Sorry for my english.

 

[scooby_dooby]

You know what, you're right. I apologize. The insult was born of the comment you made in reference to my intelligence and not 'understanding' the word arrogant. However, your post comes off more as "hey, it's easy to point a finger at Sony and say they are arrogant because everyone hates them, but doing the same to MS would be inherently difficult".

I wasn't questioning your intelligence, but that comment by Moore is not arrogance, it's something else. Arrogance comes from a feeling of superiority. What does a comment about faiulre rates have to do with MS feeling superior?? It just doesn't make sense.

And along the same thread, what in the world would MS have to be arrogant about in the console space? The fact they lost $6billion while Sony and Nintendo both turned huge profits last generation?? I don't think so...

I can think of a few words for MS in the console space: cheap, short-sighted, disorganized...but not arrogant. They simply haven't achieved enough success to be arrogant about it at this point.

I'd be more impressive if you pointed out how MS is basically on a fast route to 'crushing' the gaming industry at the moment, and doing everything that is wrong with the PC market (i.e. buying out smaller companies, etc).

Where the heck did you get that from? I never said anything remotely close to that....the last thing in the world I want is MS to have a dominant marketshare in the console space, competition is extremely important to me.

I just didn't see much substance in your original post other than 'hey it's easy to point this finger, it doesn't require much work or afterthought'.

That original post had context, and was then pulled out of a thread and made into a new one by one of the mods. Check out the Sept NPD thread, and you'll see that I didn't raise the issue, nor was I trying to lambast sony for anything, I was simply responding to what I felt was a crazy amount of spin going on in that thread.

 

[patsu]

Of course Sony was arrogant, they had 70% of the market, usually when you are at the top you tend to forget about the consumers, like MS forgot about us when they made DX10 win vista only or when Apple started to sell us overpriced MP3 players.

I don't think "forgetting about the consumers" means arrogant though. At least in the MS and Apple cases, I don't think they are (because I can see other reasons for their decisions). In the Sony case, I can also understand why PS3 was priced at US$599 without resorting to the "arrogant" argument.

In the press though, the Sony execs have certainly spoken more than they should on their competition, and not detailed enough on their own product. This is something they will need to revisit once/if their plans materialize.

 

[Deleted member 7537]

I don't think "forgetting about the consumers" means arrogant though. At least in the MS and Apple cases, I don't think they are (because I can see other reasons for their decisions). In the Sony case, I can also understand why PS3 was priced at US$599 without resorting to the "arrogant" argument.

I think they are the same cases. Apple thinks everyone is going to buy an Ipod at any price just because it's called Ipod and their players look pretty, just like Sony thought we were going to buy their console just because it's called Playstation. Microsoft it's a diferent story, just because we have no choice, in a few months we will be pushed to upgrade to Vista and we can't do anything about it, that's why monopolies suck.

I'm not calling arrogant Sony for pricing Ps3 at 600$, at that price, i think is still a great deal (i bought one even more expensive, at 600€) , they were arrogant because they thought that everyone will buy their console at that price, even when it didn't had any worthy game. They completly forgot about their fanbase that wanted an affordable console oriented too entertain, not to be the superhypermedia center that kutaragi wanted, even accepting that it's a great idea, and i like it, but that is not a console, for that almost everyone prefeers a good barebone system.

PD: Again, sorry for my english.

 

[patsu]

I think they are the same cases. Apple thinks everyone is going to buy an Ipod at any price just because it's called Ipod and their players look pretty, just like Sony thought we were going to buy their console just because it's called Playstation. Microsoft it's a diferent story, just because we have no choice, in a few months we will be pushed to upgrade to Vista and we can't do anything about it, that's why monopolies suck.

In Apple's case, they are just trying to recoup from their R&D in iPhone. There may also be Apple specific accounting practices that encouraged them to lock it at $599 at launch (but I am not sure if I can go further into it). Finally, this is probably the 3rd or 4th time I highlighted that pricing for a brand new product is very difficult to do. It is very common to make mistakes here because past data may not project the forecast and demand well. The mathematical model is either simplistic or if complex, can be unstable (They don't converge, or make too many assumptions, ...). The consumer climate also changes.

By making mistakes, I also mean "charge too low" (but you won't hear about them ).

I am not an expert in pricing. Have only scratched the surface when I worked with a marketing professor in a startup. But it is enough to know that pricing is a deep subject and companies are willing to pay millions to know the right price.

MS's Longhorn has been delayed many times over a number of years. They have to make money to recoup from their R&D too. Similarly, they will have their own way to decide a reference price. These days, pricing is a strategic problem. Management don't trivialize it. The decision probably went through a lot of heated discussions.

Based on what the execs said (and on what basic marketing classes teach), these people should be aware of the potential damage of the high price. It is very often a judgement call whether to proceed or not, and executives can change their mind daily even. In some cases, I know the management didn't trust the numbers churned out from the mathematical model (It may crank out an unexpectedly high number). A portion of those executives followed through and made good money for their shareholders. But clearly in other cases, the reverse can happen.

I'm not calling arrogant Sony for pricing Ps3 at 600$, at that price, i think is still a great deal (i bought one even more expensive, at 600€) , they were arrogant because they thought that everyone will buy their console at that price, even when it didn't had any worthy game. They completly forgot about their fanbase that wanted an affordable console oriented too entertain, not to be the superhypermedia center that kutaragi wanted, even accepting that it's a great idea, and i like it, but that is not a console, for that almost everyone prefeers a good barebone system.

Sure but that's what Kutaragi is made of. A technologist who has a very active mind according to Kaz Hirai. He has managed to pull through PS1 and PS2 following his own vision. PS3 proved to be the most difficult thus far.

 

[Geo]

This thread is sliding into a "versus" i.e. "let's defend console maker A by beating the bejesus out of console maker B" thread. We don't do that here, so please go back to talking about the thread subject. . .or, y'know, let it die at page 19 as it richly deserves.

 

[Arwin]

On five million consoles, $200 dollars price difference equals 1 billion dollars. If Sony started selling at 399, but the actual cost of the PS3 was $600 or more, then maybe by now they'd have sold every PS3 they coudl make. But also lost easily $2.000.000.000 more than they have lost now, which would take them a lot of time to recoup and would have to lend or sell a lot of other stuff for to cover for the short term (with many potential long term implications). Economies of scale amplify things considerably. Like patsu said, pricing isn't an easy subject. In Sony's case, they chose a strategy, and it ended up making their console more expensive initially then they'd hoped, as well as have less software available at launch. You gain some you lose some, but important is that they seem to have recovered, caught up, and are now ready to try to recoup their investment by making the most of their console's hardware features.

 

[-tkf-]

Sorry if you thought it was arrogance in my post, you asked for links and I posted links for each item I mentioned.

I asked for review links as i thought the players were out in the wild. That is 3 new exclusive HD-DVD players but afaik not a single one can be bought yet. It´s going to be tough for these 3 to compete with Toshiba and their price dumps.