Possible ways to gain second-hand revenues for developers. *rename

[MfA]

It seems that they are trying to have it both ways. The disk holds no value(except for distribution of data) when you get it,but when you give it all of a sudden it's so valuable that it causes you to loose ownership?

Again, it seems completely be about offering a consistent moron proof user interface ... Microsoft seems to think deactivation has too many syllables for the majority of their customer base to understand and that their customers won't be able to understand that there is a difference between the disc and ownership of the game. So they require 24 hour connection so they can revoke ownership automatically if the disk is passed on (through a retailer, they are willing to accept morons becoming surprised when they can't sell the games to other people ... but for the stores they want to retain the method the morons are used to without introducing extra steps).

There is logic to the design, infuriating logic ... but logic nonetheless.

 

[Deleted member 7537]

For me the most reasonable solution will be to let players sell the digital copies of their games in somekind of online market, and then let the publishers impose a fee on those sales (10-20%).

 

[ninzel]

Again, it seems completely be about offering a consistent moron proof user interface ... Microsoft seems to think deactivation has too many syllables for the majority of their customer base to understand and that their customers won't be able to understand that there is a difference between the disc and ownership of the game. So they require 24 hour connection so they can revoke ownership automatically if the disk is passed on (through a retailer, they are willing to accept morons becoming surprised when they can't sell the games to other people ... but for the stores they want to retain the method the morons are used to without introducing extra steps).

There is logic to the design, infuriating logic ... but logic nonetheless.

People are morons all of a sudden because they don't understand digital copyright?
People assume that a game is the same as any other product that they can buy and sell because thats the free market system we have lived with for thousands of years and intuitively understand as well as the fact that no one up until now has stopped them from functioning that way. Now the consumer is to blame?
editt: But my question was serious,if the disk is not important anymore in terms of ownership and I don't need the disk to play the game,why should I loose the right to play the game if I turn in the disk?

 

[MfA]

People are morons all of a sudden because they don't understand digital copyright?

No, that only makes them naive.

But if they can't be depended upon to perform a deactivation step before "reselling" the game they are morons, Microsoft made that assessment of their customer base ... everyone else has to suffer for it.

 

[Sonic]

As long as game makers whether they be devs, publisher, or console manufacturers are FORCED to support the game for the lifespan of the console up to a minimum of 3 years after a successor console is launched then be done with it. If I am forced to have DRM stuck down my throat because devs feel the used games market eats up too much of their sales they should be forced to support the game no matter what to ensure my up front investment is protected and so I can play a game I purchased long after I bought it. I'd be one pretty pissed off customer if all of a sudden the servers for the game I bought went down (at the discretion of the content provider) and I no longer have access. AIf that were to happen there should be legislation in place requring the content provider to give me a half refund of the full amount I purchased for the game. If game makers want to go down this road then there should be legislation in place to protect the consumer.

 

[BRiT]

they should be forced to support the game no matter what to ensure my up front investment is protected and so I can play a game I purchased long after I bought it. I'd be one pretty pissed off customer if all of a sudden the servers for the game I bought went down (at the discretion of the content provider) and I no longer have access.

Have you never played any of the EA Sports games? That's already been the case for some time and there doesn't seem to be any outrage that amounts to anything. The consumers continue to move on and buy up their next game in record numbers too.

If that were to happen there should be legislation in place requring the content provider to give me a half refund of the full amount I purchased for the game. If game makers want to go down this road then there should be legislation in place to protect the consumer.

That won't ever happen. If it hasn't already happened with EA Sports games it won't ever happen.

 

[Sonic]

Have you never played any of the EA Sports games? That's already been the case for some time and there doesn't seem to be any outrage that amounts to anything. The consumers continue to move on and buy up their next game in record numbers too.



That won't ever happen. If it hasn't already happened with EA Sports games it won't ever happen.

I don't buy EA Sports games. Are you unable to play Madden 11 any more at all? Last I checked people who purchased those games were still able to play them even if only single player experience. Or is this not correct any more? All those discs bought have now become toasters?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Discussion of ethics of free market and second-hand sales moved here.

To post in this thread, you need to be willing to ignore whether you do or don't agree with the ethics of the second-hand market and just post on how generating sales from the second hand market looking at user experience and effectiveness.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Have you never played any of the EA Sports games? That's already been the case for some time and there doesn't seem to be any outrage that amounts to anything. The consumers continue to move on and buy up their next game in record numbers too.



That won't ever happen. If it hasn't already happened with EA Sports games it won't ever happen.

Ever is s trong word. The law takes a good decade or two to catch up with technology. Purchasing a game without any mandated minimum period of utilisation is certainly unfair to the shopper, like buying a good with an invisible shelf-life. Politicians clearly don't care about that tiny niche in consumer law, but if laws are being drawn up to support second-hand sales, someone may well look at this and do something about it.

I certainly agree with Sonic that if the second-hand consumer is paying money to the developer, the developer will have to allow access to the game they paid for for a minimum amount of time, whether that's codified in laws or just a principal they choose to operate on themselves. As it is now, the second-hand buyer hasn't paid for the service so isn't entitled to it, but that'll change with second-hand sales revenues (we really need a simpler term for that).

 

[ninzel]

Sorry Shifty.
Anyway the best way would be some revenue sharing where MS or Sony create a transparent set fee that everyone knows and remains constant. It can either be remitted at retail or via online. That way the consumer can add the fee plus the retail price and determine whether the total price is worth it.
And maybe make the fee in place for the first 6 months them it goes away.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

With the online codes, we seem somewhat there already. Has the internet got an article on the affect of Sony's online activation codes on 2nd hand game sales? There must have been an impact with those games at GameStop/Game which couldn't be sold at nearly the same price as new games.

 

[ninzel]

Ive never experience a code since I only play SP portion of games.
If the online code only affects you if you want to play online that could unfairly target just the people who want to play online and let people like myself who only play SP get off scott free.
The code should have to universal to be fair.

 

[BRiT]

I don't buy EA Sports games. Are you unable to play Madden 11 any more at all? Last I checked people who purchased those games were still able to play them even if only single player experience. Or is this not correct any more? All those discs bought have now become toasters?

First link from Google: http://www.t3.com/news/ea-shuts-down-servers-for-12-games . It seems like all their 2011 sports titles have been shut down along with other games released in mid 2011. I don't know for certain how those games function with no servers online. I imagine a good majority of them function fine with only an impact to multiplayer matchmaking but some probably have more functionality impacted than just that.

January 3, 2013: FIFA Manager 11 for PC

January 11, 2013: FIFA 11 for PC, PS3, Wii & Xbox 360, FIFA 11 Ultimate Team for PS3 & Xbox 360, Madden NFL 11 for PS3, Wii & Xbox 360, Madden NFL 11 Ultimate Team for PS3 & Xbox 360, NBA JAM for PS3 & Xbox 360, NBA LIVE 10 for PS3 & Xbox 360, NCAA Football 11 for PS3 & Xbox 360, NHL 11 for PS3 & Xbox 360 and NHL 11 Ultimate Team for PS3 & Xbox 360

From the official EA site there is a massive list of what servers they shutdown: http://www.ea.com/1/service-updates

August 15, 2013 -- Online Services Shutdown
Trade Nations for Facebook

June 14, 2013 -- Online Services Shutdown
Pet Society for Facebook
SimCity Social for Facebook
The Sims Social for Facebook

June 6, 2013 -- Online Services Shutdown
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR Online for Web
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 12 for PC

May 30, 2013 -- Online Services Shutdown
Party Play Mode in SCRABBLE (Mattel version) for iPad

May 13, 2013 -- Online Services Shutdown
Madden Superstars for Facebook
NHL Superstars for Facebook
TMI Trivia for iPad, iPhone and iPod touch

April 24, 2013 -- Online Services Shutdown
JetSet Secrets for Facebook

Previously Shut Down Online Service

Spoiler

2006 FIFA World Cup for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa for PC, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Xbox 360 and Wii
Age of Immortals for Facebook
Arena Football for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Arena Football: Road to Glory for PlayStation 2
Armies of Exigo for PC
Army of Two for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Battlefield 2: Modern Combat for Xbox and Xbox 360
Battlefield 2: Modern Combat Demo for Xbox 360
BATTLEFIELD 3: Aftershock for iPad, iPhone, and iPod touch
Bejeweled for feature phones
Bejeweled for Android
Bejeweled Blitz for Google+
BOGGLE for Palm
BOOM BLOX for feature phones
BOOM BLOX Bash Party for Wii
Burnout Revenge for PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360
Burnout Dominator for PlayStation Portable
Burnout 3: Takedown for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
CONNECT 4 for Palm
Def Jam for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Dragon Age Legends for Facebook and Google+
EA Create for Mac, PC, PlayStation 3, Wii and Xbox 360
EA SPORTS Active 2.0 for PlayStation 3, Wii and Xbox 360
EA SPORTS Active NFL Training Camp for Wii
EA SPORTS Fantasy Football 09 for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3
EA SPORTS Fight Night Round 2 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
EA SPORTS Fight Night Round 3 for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox
EA SPORTS MMA (Live Broadcast Feature only) for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
EA SPORTS PGA TOUR Golf Challenge for Facebook
Facebreaker for Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3
Fantasi Safari for iPad, iPhone, and iPod touch
FIFA Manager 10 for PC
FIFA Manager 11 for PC
FIFA Soccer 2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
FIFA Soccer 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
FIFA Soccer 07 for PC, PlayStation Portable, PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360
FIFA Soccer 08 for PlayStation Portable, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Wii and PC
FIFA Soccer 09 for PC, PlayStation Portable, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and Wii
FIFA Soccer 09 Ultimate Team for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
FIFA Soccer 10 for PC, PlayStation Portable, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and Wii
FIFA Soccer 10 Ultimate Team for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
FIFA Soccer 11 for PC, PS3, Wii and Xbox 360
FIFA Soccer 11 Ultimate Team for PS3 and Xbox 360
FIFA Street 3 for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
FIFA Superstars for Facebook, iPad, iPhone and iPod touch
Ghost Harvest for iPhone
The Godfather The Game for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
The Godfather II for PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
GoldenEye: Rogue Agent for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Hasbro Family Game Night for PlayStation 3 (PSN) and Xbox 360 (XBLA)
JAMDAT Bowling 2 for feature phones
LITTLEST PET SHOP Online for PC
The Lord of the Rings, The Battle for Middle-earth for PC
The Lord of the Rings, The Battle for Middle-earth II for PC and Xbox 360
The Lord of the Rings, The Battle for Middle-earth II, The Rise of the Witch-king for PC and Xbox 360
The Lord of the Rings: Conquest for PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
MMA for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
MVP Baseball 2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
MVP 07 NCAA Baseball for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Madden NFL 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Madden NFL 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Madden NFL 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Madden NFL 08 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Wii, Xbox and Xbox 360
Madden NFL 09 for PlayStation Portable (all regions), PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Wii and Xbox
Madden NFL 10 for PlayStation Portable (all regions), PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and Wii
Madden NFL 11 for PS3, Wii and Xbox 360
Madden NFL 11 Ultimate Team for PS3 and Xbox 360
Marvel Nemesis: Rise of the Imperfects for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Medal of Honor Airborne for PlayStation Portable
Medal of Honor Heroes 2 for PlayStation Portable and Wii
Medal of Honor Pacific Assault for PC
Medal of Honor Rising Sun for PlayStation 2
Mercenaries 2: World in Flames for PC
MONOPOLY Millionaires for Facebook
MySims for PC
NASCAR 05: Chase for the Cup for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NASCAR 06: Total Team Control for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NASCAR 07 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, Xbox and Xbox 360
NASCAR 08 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NASCAR 09 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NBA JAM for PS3 & Xbox 360
NBA LIVE 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NBA LIVE 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
NBA LIVE 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
NBA LIVE 08 for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Wii
NBA LIVE 09 for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and Wii
NBA LIVE 10 for PS3 & Xbox 360
NBA Street (2007) for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NBA Street V3 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA Basketball 08 for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NCAA Basketball 09 for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NCAA Basketball 10 for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NCAA Football 05 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA Football 06 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA Football 07 for Xbox 360, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable and Xbox
NCAA Football 08 for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA Football 09 for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and PlayStation 2
NCAA Football 10 for PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NCAA Football 11 for PS3 and Xbox 360
NCAA March Madness 06 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA March Madness 2005 for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NCAA March Madness 07 for PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360
Need for Speed Carbon for PlayStation Portable
Need for Speed Most Wanted for PC, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Need for Speed ProStreet for PC and PlayStation Portable, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Need for Speed Undercover for PlayStation Portable
Need for Speed Underground for PlayStation 2
Need for Speed Underground 2 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NFL Head Coach 09 for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NFL STREET 2: Unleashed for PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NFL STREET 3 for PlayStation 2
NFL Tour for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NHL 2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NHL 06 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
NHL 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
NHL 08 for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, PlayStation 2 and PC
NHL 09 for PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and PC
NHL 10 for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
NHL 11 for PS3 and Xbox 360
NHL 11 Ultimate Team for PS3 and Xbox 360
Pet Society Vacation for iPhone
Pictionary for feature phones
POGO.de
POGO.fr
Pogo Games for Facebook
Restaurant City for Facebook
Restaurant City: Gourmet Edition for iPad, iPhone and iPod touch
RISK: Factions for Facebook
Road Trippin' for iPad, iPhone and iPod touch
The Saboteur (loss of The Midnight Club access) for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Party Play Mode in SCRABBLE (Hasbro version) for iPad
The Simpsons Game for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
The Simpsons: Tapped Out for 1st and 2nd generation iPhone and iPod touch
SimSocial on Facebook
The Sims Carnival
The Sims DJ for feature phones
The Sims 2 for PC/MAC and TheSims2.com
The Sims 3 Pets for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Six Gun Galaxy for Facebook and web
SKATE for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Spare Parts for PlayStation 3 Xbox 360
Spore for iPod and feature phones
Starship Command for Facebook
Tee Shot Live for iPhone and iPod Touch
Tetris for feature phones
Tetris Free for iPhone and iPod touch
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 05 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 06 for PC, PlayStation 2, Xbox and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 07 for PC, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Xbox and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 08 for PC, PlayStation 2 PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 09 for feature phones, PlayStation 3, Wii and Xbox 360
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 10 for PlayStation Portable, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and Wii
Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 11 for feature phones, PlayStation 3, Wii and Xbox 360
TimeSplitters 3: Future Perfect for Xbox and PlayStation 2
Total Club Manager 06 for PlayStation 2
Trenches II for iPad, iPhone and iPod touch
Troublemakers for iPad, iPhone and iPod touch
UEFA Champions League 2004-2005 for PC, PlayStation 2 and Xbox
UEFA Champions League 2006-2007 for PlayStation 2 and PlayStation Portable
UEFA Champions League 07 for PC and Xbox 360
UEFA EURO 2008 for PC PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360
Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes for PC
World Series Superstars for Facebook
YAHTZEE for Palm

 

[Tap In]

No, that only makes them naive.

But if they can't be depended upon to perform a deactivation step before "reselling" the game they are morons, Microsoft made that assessment of their customer base ... everyone else has to suffer for it.

I believe it was said that you can deactivate your games from your Xbox as well AND I could have sworn I read that you will be able to trade your games (even digital) through your Xbox on their service which would be unprecedented would it not?.

they said it but it was tempered with , we are not ready to announce those details yet"

Pretty much everyone is getting upset over something that leaks, blurbs and reports are inferring, implying.

 

[BRiT]

Ever is s trong word. The law takes a good decade or two to catch up with technology. Purchasing a game without any mandated minimum period of utilisation is certainly unfair to the shopper, like buying a good with an invisible shelf-life. Politicians clearly don't care about that tiny niche in consumer law, but if laws are being drawn up to support second-hand sales, someone may well look at this and do something about it.

I certainly agree with Sonic that if the second-hand consumer is paying money to the developer, the developer will have to allow access to the game they paid for for a minimum amount of time, whether that's codified in laws or just a principal they choose to operate on themselves. As it is now, the second-hand buyer hasn't paid for the service so isn't entitled to it, but that'll change with second-hand sales revenues (we really need a simpler term for that).

True. I should have said within the next 5-7 years and within the US. The EU has significantly better consumer protection laws than the US. I don't know why the US doesn't demand the same protections as the EU provides. It's likely due to the "I want it now and I want it cheap" mentality even if it means the products are rubbish and likely break within a few months right outside the 1 year warranty. The majority of US consumers tend not to want to pay for quality.

If things work out the way it's shaping up to be (license fee for second hand activations), I agree that the developers and publishers must support their games for far longer than they likely do now, at least within reason. I hope it allows for the developers and publishers to provide a better value for the games they sell since they get a larger portion of the revenue. The path some games are going down really turns me off from a consumer perspective -- the part where the base game experience gets smaller and smaller, where the real experience comes at a cost of $60 base game and another $20-$30 for DLC within the first month that historically would have been included in the base game for $60.

I truly dread this being turned into a negative experience where evil publishers use it to only extract out even more money from consumers while lessening the base game value.

 

[MfA]

Pretty much everyone is getting upset over something that leaks, blurbs and reports are inferring, implying.

The 24 hour thing was explicitly said by Microsoft representatives, explicitly commented on by Microsoft representatives and never reputed ... I'm sure they are still thinking about it though, cause popular it won't be ...

 

[-tkf-]

If I am forced to have DRM stuck down my throat because devs feel the used games market eats up too much of their sales they should be forced to support the game no matter what

Fantastic point, the moment the publisher want reacharound money for used games they have a problem. They will have to support the game far longer than usual. Bugs, phone/forum support, community pages, websites and multiplayer servers. The EA tradition is to switch off servers as new games comes out, forcing everyone on to a new game. If they took money from me because i bought an older title they better give me my support. As a paying customer i am entitled.

It would be like a car manufacturer taking a cut of used car sales but not producing spare parts anymore.

*Sorry for the car reference

 

[Shifty Geezer]

They will have to support the game far longer than usual. Bugs, phone/forum support, community pages, websites and multiplayer servers.

They can just ignore issues, which is current standard practice. Plenty of bugs in current games went unfixed, and currently consumers get no guaranteed QoS when they buy a game. It's quite possible you buy a game only to have a bug render it unsuitable for purpose (Borderlands 1's chat bugs on PS3) and the developers are under no legal obligation to fix it. Keeping webpages and forums up isn't any significant cost. It's only access to the game for a minimum duration that you'd be entitled to, and that may scale by how much money you give the devs. If a person paying $50 for a game is entitled to 50 weeks' play from it, someone paying $10 can't fairly expect more than one fifth, 10 weeks, play.

 

[Tap In]

The 24 hour thing was explicitly said by Microsoft representatives, explicitly commented on by Microsoft representatives and never reputed ... I'm sure they are still thinking about it though, cause popular it won't be ...

they actually contradicted the 24 hour thing as well...

the bottom line is Whoever said it first )Phil Harrison I believe)

should not have said a word until they were ready... should have just said "we will tell you later, still finalizing..."

so it is not nor was it final, I believe. It was just a horrible misstep in communication caught up in the action of reveal day questions.

I am certain there will be a bullet point release eventually as this is a fundamental change in operating procedure. My guess is XONE LIVE dash will have detailed info on how it works and Gamestop will be the ones actually explaining it eventually to the unknowing masses

 

[dagamer]

Listening to the latest Joystiq podcast, I think they came up with the best solution which is somewhat similar to movies:

1) Only allowed to buy a new game within first 60-90 days.
2) Allowed to resell a game after that to anyone you wish.

This does the following:
1) Avoids the "like-new" Gamestop $54.99 stuff which publishers hate so much on week 1.
2) Gamestop is still happy because it gets to continue operating as a business.
3) Anyone who really wants a game will be able to buy it new. (aka, you pay more for IMAX)
4) Anyone who wants it "cheap" can play it later (the game will still be fun then).
5) This avoids single-player games needing tacked on multi-player (looking at you Tomb Raider).
6) Multi-player games will still continue to have massive sales.
7) A sale 30-60 days later will have actual meaning.

The downsides:
1) A person buys a game for $60 has to wait a while to resell it back to Gamestop for $30 (but seriously, the person who does this is bad at math).
2) Rental services like GameFly are still in a lurch.

Also:
1) If games are now tied to an account, the system should not assume accounts are just for people, but for companies, hospitals, etc.. as well.

My 2 cents.