By the way, what punishment, if any, do you think Rush should get for his crimes? Should he get rehabilitation, restitution and fines, or prison time? If he does get prison time, should he be charged like a white man or should he get the 50% longer sentances black men as a whole get, despite the fact that a larger percentage of dealers are whites? To what degree should he be punished/rehabilitated?
Poor Rush
- Thread starter Natoma
- Start date
Clashman said:
How do you come to the conclusion that because some of these black people receive longer sentences is because of racism? Are you suggesting that everyone on the jury is a white racist? There are no blacks or others on these people's juries? Could it be the behavior of the defendant or other past behaviors that caused them to make the decisions they did? Perhaps it could have been the overall lack of education?
Maybe if we were all like african we'd be less racist and bigotted
Perhaps we should charge him as a women. Women receive disproportionately lower term times and many times lighter sentences than men for committing the same crimes though women committ nearly 50% of all spousal abuses and the majority of neglect and child abuse.
I say we charge him as a lefist, that is we throw him a great pitty party. We can all gather in a circle and cry over how the world is a wicked place for forcing him to abuse drugs. Then we could blame conservatives for not supporting laws that would have enabled him to have these illegal drugs.
Rush can't help it. It was the world who gave him the drugs its their fault.
(Its wasn't iraq's fault they had and used chem and bio weapons it was the US'. Hell, if we didn't sell him the the bug spray and water treatment chemicals he'd never have had the capacity to create them.)
(Blame gun makers because they make the guns who kill people despite no gun can choose when and whom it shoots...But if none of them existed there would be no more shootings).
(The US wouldn't be so racist if it were composed leftist socialists like the crack heads in the indymedia.....or Nazis.....)
Legion said:How do you come to the conclusion that because some of these black people receive longer sentences is because of racism? Are you suggesting that everyone on the jury is a white racist? There are no blacks or others on these people's juries? Could it be the behavior of the defendant or other past behaviors that caused them to make the decisions they did? Perhaps it could have been the overall lack of education?
Maybe if we were all like african we'd be less racist and bigotted
No, there's very real reasons why Black people tend to get longer sentances. You have mandatory minimums for drugs like crack, but not for cocaine, even though they're essentially the same thing. Only with cocaine there's a chance you'll catch rich folks doin' it. White collar drugs tend to carry lesser sentances than blue collar ones, regardless of the actual destructiveness of the drug. You also have racial profiling which tends to target black and latino male youth more than other groups. You therefore catch more people in black and poor urban neighborhoods. Because their neighborhoods are more targeted than rural or suburban neighborhoods, you are more likely to see repeat offenders in those same neighborhoods, because they are being looked at more closely.
Nice way to evade the question, Legion, which was meant in a serious manner. You neo-fascists like to talk tough love all the time, unless it's one of your own. I personally feel that incarceration is wrong, and that rehabilitation will cost far less both in terms of money and lives, while reaping far greater rewards. However, I believe that the only reason Rush should get rehabilitation over incarceration should be due to a general change in the system, and not as an exception because he's a poster boy for racists, gun-nuts, and right wing drug addicts. Otherwise, he can rot in a "pound-me-in-the-ass" prison with everyone else.
Not surprising especially in the case of violent crime which is committed more so by blacks and latinos than whites, asians or others.
Do you think the police deliberately avoid the rich because they are white? Come on, don't be absurd. Its more likely to be because they have power which could come back to bite them in the ass.
Consequently a lot of those wealthy people happen to be leftists in Hollywood.
And what of women who receive disproportionately lighter sentences for the same crimes? When will leftist bemoan women's rights to be equal and receive similiar punishment of men.
Again i have seen no reason to believe there are "real" reasons Clash. None at all. What you have suggested is more an example of class benefit then an issue of racism.
with the matter of racial profiling, how many people are arrested on false charges in cases where racial profiling is incorporated?
This would be more a sign of behavior. iT would be very difficult to catch "white collar" criminals do the nature of who they are regardless of their race. Oj simpson is a good example as are the other myriad of minority sports players who get away with similiar activity all the time.
Actually no i was completely rejecting the question on the grounds that it is ridiculous.
You couldn't turn to your Indymedia for a more elaborate conspiracy of my kind of people? Either you are a dipshit or your are trying to hard to come up with a way to brush aside my very accurate portrayal of leftist morality as it suits them.
I infact think rush should be punished for what he has done to the fullest extent of the law. I never comented on what i felt. i was merely refering to your assinine implications to which you can only provide more propaganda to verify in your mind only.
pax said:
Better is the society to "cares." Quit a blanket statement. I am sure the Roman Empire wouldn't have fallen if "people cared."
No. Infact i feel we should start by trying all the white and blue collar minority sports players who evade the courts by use of their positions and or wealth. I am also for women receiving equal punishment for the same crimes.
Tho Im sure celebs get away with shit as much as their non celeb corporate peers shouldnt we start where the problem is worse? Roman empire didnt fall for lack of people caring... no matter how much people cared for the fellow citizens it probably wouldnt have had much bearing on the barbarian hordes who eventually took them down...
A better historical example would help you here...
A better historical example would help you here...
pax said:
really now? if the whole world were warm and fuzzy i am sure they wouldn't have fallen.
No not at all. Infact if they cared they would have been a lot stronger as internal problems made for external weaknesses.
Please don't tell me what better example would be when i was merely suggesting your assertion is idealist crap.
Wow so an assertion that we should move towards a better judicial system in terms of equal treatment in front of the law is idealist crap? Nice way to spit on your own constitution... You see this is what happens when you make too long and too ideological a post Legion. You bury yourself with your own words.
Youve long ago beaten demo in making such startling proclamations in the newsgroup here...
Youve long ago beaten demo in making such startling proclamations in the newsgroup here...
pax said:
No, but your assertions as to moving to a better system without proposing what a better system is. Where is there a system without basic human flaws?
No more of a way of spitting on your idealism which lacks any sense of realism.
the pot calling the kettle black...
. I role my eyes souly as demo has argued his point against you and many other idealists of these forums. The socialized medicine debate was quite informing. He clearly refuted your group conclusions one by one. You simply call his proclamations startingly as they fly in the face of your ideologies. You lacked any capacity to defend your case against him.I too have defended my cases against you and others such as l233.
Um Im not proposing a new system... Im merely proposing improving the application of the laws on the books as they stand. What are you reading into what Im saying on this subject? At this point Im trying to read your mind which is mindbogglingly impossible as I have no idea what you are rabidly fantasizing about from the meager comments I posted.
As for demo winning some debate on health care I dont think you were reading all that well... You cant win a debate in comparing canada and the us system. The us system denies coverage to millions making more services available to fewer people all the while costing much more per person than in canada. The canadian system grossly underfunds its system which covers everyone. To attempt an honest comparison is not only ridiculous but also unfair. However we can compair this: we have lower chances of dying in a canadian hospital and higher life expectancy than in the us. So sounds to me like the waiting lists arent that bad after all... not yet for essentials anyway.
Its plainly obvious if we spent as much per capita on HC we'd not only have a gold plated no waiting lists system (like we had back in the 80's). Wed probably be sending thousands of docs abroad on charity missions... We wouldnt have waiting lists if the string of neo con govs we had in power hadnt decided to cut HC to much below what the us pays in terms of per capita in a country which already makes 1/3 less per capita than the US (mostly due to the fact we are grossly underpopulated).
Demos didnt win any debate on any real point other than if you are rich in the us you get great health care. If this is winning a debate its a pretty weak win in my book.
Odd that you resurrect this subject. I have a friend in Akron Ohio. Electronics Engineer whose laid off with no coverage. He's been talking to me lately about sharp pains to his leg. Started when he went back to school to take up programming. His studying position seemed to be the cause of a slight sciatic. I told him to make changes... Luckily for him he stopped early after only a few weeks. Before pricey treatment or nerve damage occured.
If demo won on any point Id like you to regurgitate that as well as you are so readily willing and able to regurgitate old threads in order to throw off scrutiny into subjects you are fucking yourself over in.
Your opinion of demo or you winning is purely subjective. I see clash and l233 win a lot of points. You guys are so stuck on your ideologies than even when losing points you 'win'. Fine live the fantasy... I see facts not ideology...
As for demo winning some debate on health care I dont think you were reading all that well... You cant win a debate in comparing canada and the us system. The us system denies coverage to millions making more services available to fewer people all the while costing much more per person than in canada. The canadian system grossly underfunds its system which covers everyone. To attempt an honest comparison is not only ridiculous but also unfair. However we can compair this: we have lower chances of dying in a canadian hospital and higher life expectancy than in the us. So sounds to me like the waiting lists arent that bad after all... not yet for essentials anyway.
Its plainly obvious if we spent as much per capita on HC we'd not only have a gold plated no waiting lists system (like we had back in the 80's). Wed probably be sending thousands of docs abroad on charity missions... We wouldnt have waiting lists if the string of neo con govs we had in power hadnt decided to cut HC to much below what the us pays in terms of per capita in a country which already makes 1/3 less per capita than the US (mostly due to the fact we are grossly underpopulated).
Demos didnt win any debate on any real point other than if you are rich in the us you get great health care. If this is winning a debate its a pretty weak win in my book.
Odd that you resurrect this subject. I have a friend in Akron Ohio. Electronics Engineer whose laid off with no coverage. He's been talking to me lately about sharp pains to his leg. Started when he went back to school to take up programming. His studying position seemed to be the cause of a slight sciatic. I told him to make changes... Luckily for him he stopped early after only a few weeks. Before pricey treatment or nerve damage occured.
If demo won on any point Id like you to regurgitate that as well as you are so readily willing and able to regurgitate old threads in order to throw off scrutiny into subjects you are fucking yourself over in.
Your opinion of demo or you winning is purely subjective. I see clash and l233 win a lot of points. You guys are so stuck on your ideologies than even when losing points you 'win'. Fine live the fantasy... I see facts not ideology...
pax said:
I really isn't that difficult espcially when one has spoken to you in the past about various political issues. The Michael Moore issue being no different from any other occassion where you turn to idealism rather than logic or reason to verify your assumptions that America lives in a society of fear. Your jusitification: you simply believe such as you have been "witness" to it. Why should i assume you are working on solid ground now?
Even your proposal of better application is rather ideological crap. How exactly do you plan to do this Pax? Evert society suffers from said ailments. What? Your feelings to the contrary will some how change these facts?
Oh my, He argued against everyone point all of you made and gave supporting facts to the contrary. None of you could dispute them.
he clearly had something to say about the supposed efficiency aspect of this as well if i remember. it didn't take long for you all to stop harping on this issue.
If i recall thats not what he saying. It seemed to me that he made a very good argument for anyone who works being able to afford health care.
fucking myself over in? Please Pax your absolutely ridiculous arugmentation has gotten yourself in to rather caustic arguments plenty of times. You lack any sense of objectivity especially in the case of the Michael Moore debate. It was proven Moore was a liar yet you choose to support his words on the you both shared the same opinions. The arguments was assinine and insulting to anyone of with any form of intellect.
You do not see facts Pax, you see your opinions.
And its pretty obvious you see your own. In the HC debate demo gave his anecdotal evidence. In california alone there is a huge industry of legal aids for peolpe WITH coverage who are denied care.
I see you guys losing points all the time but you claim victory. Im the michael moore debate you went as far as defending GM in what was a legal precedent that could seriously impede a future effort at defeating another anti semitic genocide if that country's military happened to be usign factories owned by us corporations in that country.
But you won that debate? Get real legion. You 'won' it by creating moral equivalencies with other countries saygin we are no better without backing it up. To an observer or people whove moved and lived in US cities and lived in Canadian cities will know theres a difference.
there you go again with that generalizing.... were all the same no better or worse no need to make any eforts arguement... rots the mind trying to figure what motivates these kinds of rebuttals... So getting cocaine recognized on the same level as crack is idealistic crap? People like you would leave the grossest injustice stagnate...
I see you guys losing points all the time but you claim victory. Im the michael moore debate you went as far as defending GM in what was a legal precedent that could seriously impede a future effort at defeating another anti semitic genocide if that country's military happened to be usign factories owned by us corporations in that country.
But you won that debate? Get real legion. You 'won' it by creating moral equivalencies with other countries saygin we are no better without backing it up. To an observer or people whove moved and lived in US cities and lived in Canadian cities will know theres a difference.
there you go again with that generalizing.... were all the same no better or worse no need to make any eforts arguement... rots the mind trying to figure what motivates these kinds of rebuttals... So getting cocaine recognized on the same level as crack is idealistic crap? People like you would leave the grossest injustice stagnate...
I am sure you do as in your mind you ideologies can not be false. Ergo any argument against the opposition is a victory for you.
No Pax, thats not what i did. Here is a good example that you lack any sense of objectivity. What i said was they have a right to persue what they consider right. In a free legal society everyone has that right. Except you chose to demonize them for what happened to them years ago. SO much for you proposal of changing the system.
Get real? You tried to defend Moore by saying your opinions validated his! How absurd. You hadn't a clue what you were arguing have the time and you lacked any capacity to refute evidence of his lies. I gave you example after example of his dishonest reporting and you simply turned a blind eye to each example. It was clear the only reason you chose to agree with him is that he is a celebrity figure who agreed with your opinions of american. A rather weak and insipid argument at that.
Here again you are trying to use you idiotic obeservations to validate your points. Have you ever taken a course in logic in your life? Jesus Christ. Pax your straw man arguments are easily used against you. You suggests your observations of this country validate his claims however i could make exactly same allegations about canadian when canada is compared to country X. The more i mentioned this to you the more agitated you became! It was clear you had nothing of substance to prove your case.
Oh my God. Its clear you have no real idea what you are talking about. Every country in the world has a problem with its elites and justice throughout time. If you don't think so you are clearly blinded by your own ludicrously humanistic philosophies. You are only proving my allegations against you the more you deny facts.
Pax, are you dense? Did i defend the crack/cocaine bs? Hell no. I agree its absolutely a travesty. What i disagreed with was Clashmen ridiculous claim that this was souly for racist reasons.
Well christ legion that what my 'idealism' was about. But you drew conclusion that I was upholding idealistic crap! mayeb if you ask next time instead of assuming what I was thinkig about.
You generalized te argument in the maichael moore debate. Ergo he has some facts wrong therefore he must be a complete liar! As for the gm debate you clearly argued in favor of gms right to sue no matter how ignoble. And you defended their win as well due to a technical loophole.
That legislators are too corrupt to tie up such loose ends should concern you but instead you uphold the right of corporations to undermine a country's vital war effort. Can you imagine such a lawsuit during ww2? This isnt about undermining legal freedoms or rights its about RIGHT AND WRONG. This is the realm of evil vs good but you couldnt see past your right wing nose.
Of course you cant give up now... you find the slightest opening to weasel out of in this issue. You have classic inability to admit error. Do I have such a problem? Read my mistake I made at AICN ni the Master and Commander thread. I can admit error and see facts for facts. But you hold onto ideology till death no matter how outrageous the fact. This is an exercise in your own ego and not intellect.
I admitted the gun legislation in Canada was wrong whereas I used to support it. Can you give any example of you ever realizing a stupid mistake like in the GM case and admitting being wrong?
Ill just repeat one of my last poinst as well... thinsg are not the same everywhere... this isalways the last recourse of the coaward who cat provide other beter excuse for wantings in his own country. You can generalizxe all you want but corruption is not as bad everywhere. I didnt say DIDNT exist at all eslwhere as you tried to styupidly surmise I said its worse in some places than others.
You're just being PC here legion... and its a nauseating...
You generalized te argument in the maichael moore debate. Ergo he has some facts wrong therefore he must be a complete liar! As for the gm debate you clearly argued in favor of gms right to sue no matter how ignoble. And you defended their win as well due to a technical loophole.
That legislators are too corrupt to tie up such loose ends should concern you but instead you uphold the right of corporations to undermine a country's vital war effort. Can you imagine such a lawsuit during ww2? This isnt about undermining legal freedoms or rights its about RIGHT AND WRONG. This is the realm of evil vs good but you couldnt see past your right wing nose.
Of course you cant give up now... you find the slightest opening to weasel out of in this issue. You have classic inability to admit error. Do I have such a problem? Read my mistake I made at AICN ni the Master and Commander thread. I can admit error and see facts for facts. But you hold onto ideology till death no matter how outrageous the fact. This is an exercise in your own ego and not intellect.
I admitted the gun legislation in Canada was wrong whereas I used to support it. Can you give any example of you ever realizing a stupid mistake like in the GM case and admitting being wrong?
Ill just repeat one of my last poinst as well... thinsg are not the same everywhere... this isalways the last recourse of the coaward who cat provide other beter excuse for wantings in his own country. You can generalizxe all you want but corruption is not as bad everywhere. I didnt say DIDNT exist at all eslwhere as you tried to styupidly surmise I said its worse in some places than others.
You're just being PC here legion... and its a nauseating...
pax said:
You can't seem to drop this can you? Lol you accuse me of assuming though from the last line of your last post it was clear you were assuming i was defending the crack/cocaine travesty. Just like you thought i was defending GM.
No i just showed how he lied.Omg. Are you suggesting we guess as to what is fact? That we should play "pick and choose" with history? What an ideally leftist position? He had nothing to support his arguments. I tore them to shreads one by one. Hense the reason you had to use opinion, rather than fact, to try and validate his arguments clearly leaving you in the hole.
.
Again, so much for you idea of changing the system. They have a right to sue in a free legal system. Perhaps not in your controlled legal system where there is no objectivity. Do i think what they did was right? No. Don't try and lecture me on antisemetism when you support jew killing palestinians Pax.
I did not such thing. Not at all did i ever condone what they did. I simply said they had legal right, which in a free system they do.
It is clear, when it suits you, you will bring up past conflicts to demonize corporate interests however right before your nose jewish people are being killed in israel by palestinians terrorist who's impact you ignore. Hypocrisy.
No, you just perceive my lack of defense as a weakness. You are clearly jumping on this to feel as though you have something to stand on. I never defended what they did as right. I merely said in a free system they have the right to sue. They do not have the right to win.
As classic as your inability i suppose pax. hense the reason why you still can't admit Moore used lies to validate his claims making them at best unproven or completely wrong.
Again you are arguing this simply to feel you have won something. You are far to emotional to be caring on a debate objectively concerning these matters. Can you not perceive the law should protect everyone? Who are you to judge pax? Are you God? You certainly are as inconsistant and hateful as he.
The case was not wrong Pax. The premise of supporting the Nazis was. These people at GM have the legal right to sue. THere is nothing you or I can do, or should do to stop it.
You sickening me with your proposed support of the jews by sympathizing with them and what happened after WWII however you condone palestinians today and their hate mongering.
Not unless you have made some opinion/emotion based observation correct?
Much like your defense of Moore, eh?
Oh my. Here is another example of you reading things into what i said. Please show me where i stated all corruption is equal world wide.
However your assertion that i stated all corruption is equal world wide is less stupid? The workings of your mind are profoundly inconsistant Pax.
as nauseating as your support of palestinians.
Well to be honest we all have to try and read into what the mindset is trying to convey... if I mistook your actual feelnigs towards gms lawsuit im sorry but I do see that lawsuit as just about a classic case of good vs evil...
As for supporting jew killing palestinians I do not. I agree Israel has a right to certain things to keep the terrorists who cant be negotiated with at bay. From incursions into palestine even once that state has been established to the absolute exclusion of any and all traffic if it is so required between Palestine and Israel with the building of fence ON the actual border with the west bank and gazaa. The only thing I agree with is that the west bank and gazaa should become the state of palestine.
I would not view or legitimize in any way attacks by palestinians once they have obtained their freedom. After Israel leaves the west bank and gazaa the onus will now be in their hands to make things better for themselves. Ive always been crititcal of terrorist attacks on civilians and can only understand attacks on obvious military targets as valid under current circumstances. Those attacks that are on military will not be seen by me as legitimate once Israel has given up the WB and Gazaa....
I did see the 60 min bit on the corruption of Yasser Arafat and the missing billion bucks he withheld from the government and people in order to finance his buddies through patronage... While I was never against a Palestine under arafat I do think now that because of these blatent corruption issues he needs to go and reform to take place in the form of a multi partied democratic palestinian state...
Itd be nice if it happened before Palestine was created but Im not sure yet if its necessary for that to happen ...
I spent 43 days in Israel back in 1988. I assure you I sympathize deeply with the jewish people and the little bit of country they have. I just hope that peace tween all concerned will happen... I also feel beyond a doubt that if Israel gives the palestinians their land that Israel will gain an immense repsect and amdiration and moral high ground. A huge moral high ground that will only get higher if some remaining fundamentalists continue their attacks in Israel...
Im sure virtually the entire world would come to Israels rescue if arabs got stupid again and attacked Israel unprovoked...
Edit for clarity...
As for supporting jew killing palestinians I do not. I agree Israel has a right to certain things to keep the terrorists who cant be negotiated with at bay. From incursions into palestine even once that state has been established to the absolute exclusion of any and all traffic if it is so required between Palestine and Israel with the building of fence ON the actual border with the west bank and gazaa. The only thing I agree with is that the west bank and gazaa should become the state of palestine.
I would not view or legitimize in any way attacks by palestinians once they have obtained their freedom. After Israel leaves the west bank and gazaa the onus will now be in their hands to make things better for themselves. Ive always been crititcal of terrorist attacks on civilians and can only understand attacks on obvious military targets as valid under current circumstances. Those attacks that are on military will not be seen by me as legitimate once Israel has given up the WB and Gazaa....
I did see the 60 min bit on the corruption of Yasser Arafat and the missing billion bucks he withheld from the government and people in order to finance his buddies through patronage... While I was never against a Palestine under arafat I do think now that because of these blatent corruption issues he needs to go and reform to take place in the form of a multi partied democratic palestinian state...
Itd be nice if it happened before Palestine was created but Im not sure yet if its necessary for that to happen ...
I spent 43 days in Israel back in 1988. I assure you I sympathize deeply with the jewish people and the little bit of country they have. I just hope that peace tween all concerned will happen... I also feel beyond a doubt that if Israel gives the palestinians their land that Israel will gain an immense repsect and amdiration and moral high ground. A huge moral high ground that will only get higher if some remaining fundamentalists continue their attacks in Israel...
Im sure virtually the entire world would come to Israels rescue if arabs got stupid again and attacked Israel unprovoked...
Edit for clarity...