Politics - Which party are you siding with?

[Willmeister]

I'm never voting again until the Silly Party is put on the ballot.

 

[Sabastian]

I'm never voting again until the Silly Party is put on the ballot.

heh, I thought that there already was one here in Canada. *cough* NDP!!?

http://www.portal.ca/~marcelh/Manifesto/Manifesto.html

Anyhow there you go...prolly just boosted hits on their page by 1000%.

 

[Humus]

A silly party gotta be the progressive conservatives. No, I don't know anything about their agenda, but given that "progressive" and "conservative" are opposites it sounds pretty silly to me.

 

[Sabastian]

A silly party gotta be the progressive conservatives. No, I don't know anything about their agenda, but given that "progressive" and "conservative" are opposites it sounds pretty silly to me.

lol, nah, the "silly" party is most definitely the NDP. (New Democratic Party) The irony here is that they are not so new anymore. Mayhap they ought to rename themselves more appropriate… I don't know, how about the old democratic party or just label themselves plain old socialist. I think that would be more fitting. Of course while they are third way preponderates (welfare state variety) it is most likely they will have approximately the same chance that a snowball in hell does of actually forming a federal government. On the provincial level their track record is just plain ridiculous people won't vote for them because their spending and taxation policies get so out of control the results were disastrous in both BC and Ontario. They simply are too left wing in their political thought, indeed the "silly party" of Canada.

EDIT: I might add the federal PC party is fairly centrist they are similar to the federal liberal party in so many ways. I think that is about to change though, but it's a "good thing".

 

[ByteMe]

but the republicans aren't getting away with it. we have alienated even our most important allies, we have turned into the neighborhood bully. the democrats wouldn't have ever managed to get the support to do something like that. International policy is dictated domestically.

Not true. Our most important allies are the UK and Israel. They are on our side in this. We are not a bully. I am glad that we finally got sick of the EU position of being cowards.

 

[zurich]

EDIT: I might add the federal PC party is fairly centrist they are similar to the federal liberal party in so many ways. I think that is about to change though, but it's a "good thing".

If the NDP is the 'Silly Party', the Alliance is the 'crazy' party They're a little terrifying heh.

edit: See here for the latest Alliance stunt.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1069944946157_65354146///?hub=TopStories

Canadian Alliance MP Larry Spencer has been fired as the party's family issues critic for comments he made on homosexuality in a newspaper interview. Canadian Alliance leader Stephen Harper allowed Spencer to voluntarily leave caucus.

In a Vancouver Sun interview published Thursday, Spencer, a Saskatchewan MP, said he would support any initiative to outlaw homosexuality. He said he believed that because of the gay rights movement, there will soon be strong pushes to legalize polygamy and pedophilia.

...

Spencer, a U.S.-born former Baptist pastor, said he believed gays had conspired to seduce and recruit young boys in playgrounds and locker rooms and that a "well-orchestrated'' conspiracy has led to recent successes in gay rights.

 

[Legion]

I don't quite seem to fit with the mold of many political parties.

I am "socially liberal" but reject devisive thinking that minorities deserve special rights.

I suppose you could say i am Humus' version of liberal when it comes to economics; I despise the very notion government must pervert and exploit working systems. Socialism and Communism disgust me.

I feel the government should have severaly limited powers keeping special interest groups from dictating social policies.

 

[Legion]

Spencer, a U.S.-born former Baptist pastor, said he believed gays had conspired to seduce and recruit young boys in playgrounds and locker rooms and that a "well-orchestrated'' conspiracy has led to recent successes in gay rights.

i wonder if the Holy Phantom told him that.

 

[oi]

I despise the very notion government must pervert and exploit working systems

I'm just wondering if you're also against corporations who exploit their workers on an international level? Or is that fine and it's just when it's done by the government that it disgusts you?

Edit: I'd say I'm pretty liberal, with a touch of marxistic views on international politics/economy.

 

[Willmeister]

It's funny Sebastian, that the NDP's popularity when it comes to policy is extremely popular with Canadians. It is almost twice as popular in Canada than the Alliance (15% vs 9%), yet the Alliance is official opposition. The NDP policies are more popular than the party. Ontario will always vote for 'the winner'. The NDP is always well-regarded but it just doesn't translate into votes. Voters have a fear that if they don't vote Liberal, their voices won't be heard in Parliment (or the Legislature here in NB), so they continually vote in backbenchers... who are never heard in Parliment (Legislature). Or they fear 'retribution' from the Liberals, a lesson the CBC learned well.

The problem is also that Ontario would never allow for a leader outside of Central Canada (name the last one who surivived) which is a lesson the NDP have FINALLY learned.

The PCs know their leader is unelectable in Ontario, as does the Alliance, which is why both parties are scrambling to merge... again. They can't even get their own houses in order and Canadians just look at it and roll their eyes. "Not again..."

The joke parties in Canada are the PC and Alliance.

The Evil Party up here is the Liberals, and they've gotten more Evil since Paul Martin has browbeaten himself into the Liberal leadership.

 

[Legion]

I'm just wondering if you're also against corporations who exploit their workers on an international level? Or is that fine and it's just when it's done by the government that it disgusts you?

And what of workers who use Unions to exploit corporations by threatening use of legal and public means? Or when governments force corporations to subsidize or higher underqualified labor? No, of course it doesn't just disgust me when the government does it. But, who really can forget the travesties of communism and Nazi socialism?

 

[Sabastian]

It's funny Sebastian, that the NDP's popularity when it comes to policy is extremely popular with Canadians. It is almost twice as popular in Canada than the Alliance (15% vs 9%), yet the Alliance is official opposition. The NDP policies are more popular than the party. Ontario will always vote for 'the winner'. The NDP is always well-regarded but it just doesn't translate into votes. Voters have a fear that if they don't vote Liberal, their voices won't be heard in Parliment (or the Legislature here in NB), so they continually vote in backbenchers... who are never heard in Parliment (Legislature). Or they fear 'retribution' from the Liberals, a lesson the CBC learned well.

The problem is also that Ontario would never allow for a leader outside of Central Canada (name the last one who surivived) which is a lesson the NDP have FINALLY learned.

The PCs know their leader is unelectable in Ontario, as does the Alliance, which is why both parties are scrambling to merge... again. They can't even get their own houses in order and Canadians just look at it and roll their eyes. "Not again..."

The joke parties in Canada are the PC and Alliance.

The Evil Party up here is the Liberals, and they've gotten more Evil since Paul Martin has browbeaten himself into the Liberal leadership.

lol, your are joking right? The NDP have never been able to form the official opposition on the federal level, not ever, not even close. Your full of shit that their agenda is popular. I suppose maybe on the University campus neverland but outside of very few consider them to be a legitimate alternative to ether the conservative party or the liberal party for that matter. At any rate you will see in the next federal election that the NDP is relegated to a few seats barely managing to maintain official party status while the real race will be between the federal liberals and the new conservative party. The alliance suffered some horrible accounts with stockwell day and ever since they have been struggling in the poles, that doesn't mean that western voters are going to drop support for that group all together. They were the official opposition 2 times in a row that is quite an achievement for a new political party BTW. The liberals managed by garnering support in Ontario and allot of support from the east coast. The federal conservatives created a support base in the east splitting conservative support substantially. I see depending on how the next few months go for the new conservative party possible gains in Ontario as well. In other words the NDP will in the next federal election be yet again struggling to maintain official party status as usual. The only potential wild card for support of the liberals is Quebec were they never have voted for any conservative party, and have strong bias for the bloc, go figure. My father was an MLA for 14 years here in NB. There is not popular support for the NDP party on the provincial level here in NB ether, never was, again they have been struggling to maintain official party status for ages. There have been times when they could hold conventions in freaking telephone booths for christs sake.

The federal conservative party was broken up after the Mulroney government lost some much popularity, unfairly so, because of the hated GST tax increase they implemented. Of course they had to do it to deal with the incredible debt that the Canadian government incurred from the Trudeau governments drunken spending spree. Free trade has been nothing but a boon for Canada so much so that the liberals won't even touch it. At any rate the conservative party has been split for the past decade, now they are coming back together and so you won't see a split in the conservative vote which is a great thing in my opinion. Since the NDP is regarded as such an illegitimate party the federal liberals would simply continue to stay in power with the conservative vote split. Internally the federal liberals have quite a spectrum as well ranging from feminists socialist to fiscal conservatives and even some of them are nearly outright conservatives. So much so that Chretien had to put a whip to the backbenchers to keep them in line. As for the NDP party there is no internal struggle they are far left and know it, but so does the electorate. Where the federal liberal and conservative parties have a far more balanced and centrist agenda. The point is a new united conservative party will give voters a real alternative on the federal level. I think that their name will be the Canadian conservative party? Not sure about that though.

EDIT: I do however agree the federal liberals ought to go but I don't have a horrible problem with Martin over Chretien. In fact I see it as a major improvement for their party, Martin being a fiscal conservative and all.

 

[Sabastian]

EDIT: I might add the federal PC party is fairly centrist they are similar to the federal liberal party in so many ways. I think that is about to change though, but it's a "good thing".

If the NDP is the 'Silly Party', the Alliance is the 'crazy' party They're a little terrifying heh.

edit: See here for the latest Alliance stunt.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1069944946157_65354146///?hub=TopStories

heh, one guy says his opinion and you make blanket statements about the whole party? You forget to make note that he was immediately fired from his position in the party.

Canadian Alliance MP Larry Spencer, who caused a firestorm for his party after telling a newspaper that he would support any initiative to make homosexuality illegal again, has been fired from his role as family issues critic.

He also voluntarily removed himself from the Alliance caucus.

Alliance Leader Stephen Harper told reporters on Thursday — the day the remarks ran in the Vancouver Sun — that the comments were not in line with the Alliance party platform and were "unacceptable." He informed Mr. Spencer in a telephone call Thursday morning that he had been fired from his critic position.

He added that Mr. Spencer indicated to him that he regrets the comments.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031127.wgay1126_3/BNStory/Front/

There are people with all sorts of different views on that issue BTW even in the liberal party there was allot of wrangling about homosexual marriage. It's just that they were told to keep their personal views to themselves.

 

[oi]

And what of workers who use Unions to exploit corporations by threatening use of legal and public means? Or when governments force corporations to subsidize or higher underqualified labor? No, of course it doesn't just disgust me when the government does it. But, who really can forget the travesties of communism and Nazi socialism?

Agreed, which is why I find it kind of odd for you to say that socialism and communism disgusts you, since in theory that is what both of them tries to avoid in their ideal state. The ideas behind the idealogies [marxism] contains more than "exploiting" their citizens by taxes. But I'm sure you know all about that, right?
Oh, and for the record, just because nazi-Germany used a form of socialism doesn't mean it's evil, rather it proves that it can be used to rapidly build up a country. To even think that socialism in some way has to equal what the nazis did is quite humorous actually.

But since I'm tired as fuck and sitting here giggling like a schoolgirl staring at the screen, I'm gonna take a nap rather than go any deeper into this.

 

[zurich]

heh, one guy says his opinion and you make blanket statements about the whole party? You forget to make note that he was immediately fired from his position in the party.

Not fired, 'allowed to step down'. Fired would have been too much of a just response for the Alliance heh.

 

[Sabastian]

heh, one guy says his opinion and you make blanket statements about the whole party? You forget to make note that he was immediately fired from his position in the party.

Not fired, 'allowed to step down'. Fired would have been too much of a just response for the Alliance heh.

Go ahead and deny the reality all you want. The fact of the matter is that he most certainly was fired. I saw the media interview Harper about the issue directly and Spencer was fired, immediately. Never mind the article I just provided.

 

[pax]

Well being that I ran for the NDP provincialy... NDP is actually very centrist. Manitoba has done very well under them and they keep getting reelected. In BC the liberals and conservatives and alliance had to merge their 3 parties in order to win the last election against them.

As for why it never succeeded federally its simple... Every major idea the CCP, the old name of the NDP, pushed was taken by the Liberals and to a lesser extent the Progressive Conservative's and implemented.

The NDP caused such a fear in federal politics 90% of its platform was essentially implemented without them getting into power.

As for the debt its pretty clear where it came from. Economically damaging interest rates from the bank of Canada's 0% inflation experiment of the 1980's and early 90's from John Crowe's directorship who was put there BY Mulroney. NO OTHER COUNTRY in the world has so damaged its economy by trying such a foolish thing as to try and run a 0% inflation economy... The spread between rates and inflation was 2-3x what it is today... First and best and probly only good thing Chretien did was sack that idiot Crowe when he came into power.

As for free trade ask the Conservatives own chief negotiator about the deal that was truck leaving the canadian gov open to lawsuits by foreign companies leaving the US gov free from such threats. Good old chapter 11 and even then we still get slapped with duties and when we get the duties dropped its not the free trade deal that stops em its the WTO.

Truth is there is very little added openness of the us market to canadian companies from the free trade deal. The US buys what it needs and slaps duties on things when its politically expedient... Ask the lumber firms if they think free tade works... or the wheat farmers... But god knows the us wants our water... even if it means taking it away from our own towns and cities and forcing us to get it further north and at much greater expense...

 

[Sabastian]

lol, you never? My god man, what were you thinking. Your claim that the NDP is centrist is absolutely ridiculous though. I don't have time for this right now but your idea of what is centrist has to be awfully skewed to perceive the NDP as centrist. Any collectivist oriented party could never be centrist from the get go. The NDP has strong socialist roots and you know it, particularly if you ran for their party. The only reason that there is some sort of semblance that the NDP has effected policies on the federal level is that Trudeau and Chretien would have made fine leaders of the federal NDP parties both of which while running with the Liberal party were socialist. So it isn’t that people were so much interested in the NDP platform being implemented but rather a few left of center Liberal party leaders were elected.

Here is a little reality check for those whom have pipe dreams of the NDP party becoming elected. Below is a link to the election stats for the last federal election. I was not able to find stats for the previous election but the results were fairly similar. I think that I can count the number of NDP ridings on one hand. The green and blue represent conservative ridings and of course the red represent liberal ridings. Take note of Ontario being the liberal stronghold. These of course are the target ridings in the next federal election, the west is a strong conservative region and there is fair support in the east for conservatives as well. Again I believe the fulcrum of the next election though will be based in Ontario where the liberals have much to lose.

http://atlas.gc.ca/site/english/map...e&scale=41953025.267029&imgxy=214+190&mapext=

I don't have the time to address you revelation properly right now Pax, I have to go to work. BTW care to mention to all here how many NDP were elected in the last provincial election? One or two? Methinks it was only one of a potential 55 seats.

Ahh, here we go. Sorry to hear about your poor fortune in the last election Pax. I know how vicious politics can get, first hand I might add.

http://www.canada.com/national/features/elections2003/newbrunswick/index.html

 

[Willmeister]

Like Pax mentioned, the Liberals in the 1960s were running scared of the CCF, especially when it merged with other groups to become the NDP. Tommy Douglas was well on his way to becoming the next PM of Canada but one thing stopped him: Trudeaumania and his Bay Street Backers.

But, again, like Pax mentioned, the granddaddy of the NDP's platform, medicare, was adopted by the Liberals to basically removed the wind from the NDPs sails. This is the example I always use to convince people that a party doesn't not have to hold power to effect change.

There are a few differences that are going to show up next election.

1) The PCs and CCRAP both are going to loose votes. The Tories are either going to jump to the sinking CCRAP ship, or stay faithful to the Tories and finally help drive the debate back to the centre despite the Liberals under Martin and CCRAP trying harder to drive it to the right,

2) Paul Martin's history at the Department of Finance might become an issue and make Shawinigate the trivial issue it was. Hopefully, CCRAP might turn on one of it's own and go after Martin,

3) Paul Martin's policies will show just exactly what the Liberals are all about: caving into the USA while publicly proclaiming otherwise, and (http://www.straightgoods.ca/ViewFeature3.cfm?REF=400)

4) the leader of the federal NDP is now from Ontario. I also think the McGuinty and Campbell, surprise surprise, is lurching to the right and breaking campaign promises McGuinty knew he couldn't keep, and Campbell, well Campbell is basically a CCRAPper. It might happen that the Ontario voter may not take to kindly to being hoodwinked and take it out on Martin. BC is definitely not voting CCRAP. Certainly not the GVRD where all the votes are...

The only thing Martin does have going for him, other than the constant media orgasm, is the other parties. CCRAP has been loosing it's traditional base, PCs are now split, and the Bloc is fading into irrelevance.

 

[Legion]

Agreed, which is why I find it kind of odd for you to say that socialism and communism disgusts you,

Because they are false ideals. Communism and Socialism have been tried ad nauseam without providing results over more free democracies. Communism has only destroyed lives. It would appear the less "free" a system is the less successful it becomes.

since in theory that is what both of them tries to avoid in their ideal state.

And democracies don't? What of these ideals? Man nor the system are perfect! These ideals could never be met.

The ideas behind the idealogies [marxism] contains more than "exploiting" their citizens by taxes. But I'm sure you know all about that, right?

Of course, as Nazism had more to it then jew killing.

Oh, and for the record, just because nazi-Germany used a form of socialism doesn't mean it's evil,

No it means it failed. It affectively achieved the opposite of its ideals.

rather it proves that it can be used to rapidly build up a country.

Are you comparing Nazi socialism to states within many other countries? Any system can build if you brainwash and mentally enslave the populations and force them into doing your bidding. Motivation is the key. China and Russia have certianly proven this but i wouldn't call them successful systems. Would you?

To even think that socialism in some way has to equal what the nazis did is quite humorous actually.

Likewise, you seem to think nazi socialism proves socialism can be used to build up countries rapidly.