Philosophy behind Al Qaeda?

[epicstruggle]

If you're going to make statements that a good portion of Islam suports terrorism, back it up. Until then, you are indeed talking out your ass.

There is no way to talk to you without you using vulgar language is there? Wow, I guess thats the only way you can make your arguments than fine. Anyways I have provided a link to a poll that supports what I said. Please refrain from mudslinging, if you want me to back up something I said please ask, and ill go search for it.

later,
epic

 

[Natoma]

If you're going to make statements that a good portion of Islam suports terrorism, back it up. Until then, you are indeed talking out your ass.

There is no way to talk to you without you using vulgar language is there? Wow, I guess thats the only way you can make your arguments than fine. Anyways I have provided a link to a poll that supports what I said. Please refrain from mudslinging, if you want me to back up something I said please ask, and ill go search for it.

later,
epic

You're still talking out your ass. That poll, as I stated in my last post, has nothing to do with support for terrorism and violence against Israelis.

If you consider calling someone on their unsupported claims mudslinging, then so be it. I'm a mudslinger.

 

[epicstruggle]

That poll you posted has nothing to do with those people espousing violence against Jews and funding terrorism. They are stating that they don't think there's any way to be found for the Israel/Palestine conflict to be resolved.

That is a reflection of the failed attempts at peace, not a support for terrorism.

"The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to coexist"

This is a feeling of hopelessness wrt the situation in the middle east, not support for terrorism. If you're going to post polls, at least know what the heck they're trying to discover.

I guess that they(palestinians) will just ask them(israeli) to leave nicely and theyll do that, right?

later,
epic

 

[Natoma]

That poll you posted has nothing to do with those people espousing violence against Jews and funding terrorism. They are stating that they don't think there's any way to be found for the Israel/Palestine conflict to be resolved.

That is a reflection of the failed attempts at peace, not a support for terrorism.

"The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to coexist"

This is a feeling of hopelessness wrt the situation in the middle east, not support for terrorism. If you're going to post polls, at least know what the heck they're trying to discover.

I guess that they(palestinians) will just ask them(israeli) to leave nicely and theyll do that, right?

later,
epic

Who knows. But that was not the target of the poll you posted. The poll you posted does nothing to support your claims that a good portion of the 1 Billion practicing muslims worldwide support violence and terrorism.

Try again.

 

[epicstruggle]

You always seem to parse other peoples post to suit your needs. Here is the analysis (either the paper or the polls) that they came up with:

Muslims lined up strongly behind the opinion that "the rights and needs of the Palestinian people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists.

And if you seriously think that palestinians will nicely ask israelis to just leave their homes, your sadly mistaken.

later,
epic

 

[Natoma]

You are completely wrong epicstruggle.

Muslims lined up strongly behind the opinion that "the rights and needs of the Palestinian people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists." The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to coexist...

The reason why they feel that there is no way for Israel and Palestinians to co-exist, the reason why they feel that the rights and needs of the Palestinian people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists, is because of the fact that all previous attempts at peace and reconciliation between the palestinians and israelis have failed. You have absolutely no clue how to read a poll.

As I stated earlier, this is a reflection of the hopelessness and jadedness with the many failed attempts at peace in the past. That is not an implicit support of terrorism. I can bet you that those numbers will decrease significantly if the US roadmap shows signs of progress.

 

[epicstruggle]

And do you honestly believe that the majority of the 1 billion practicing muslims are extremist??? Just as you would paint islam as a religion that is guilty of all the atrocities a very tiny and extremist sect commit...

you say very tiny

According too many polls there is more than a very tiny percentage that would really like to see every jew killed or driven off israeli land. Do you disagree with what i just said.

i say more than a very tiny percentage

The poll you posted does nothing to support your claims that a good portion of the 1 Billion practicing muslims worldwide support violence and terrorism.

you restate/reshuffle/change what I said to a good portion.

Lets say that 10 million muslims are pro-jew destruction and pro-terrorism. That's not small amount of people. Frankly it's enough for a small country. And surely that is an overstatement of those who support and fund terrorism. And yet, out of a practicing 1 Billion worldwide, that is 1% of the population.

source:fbi worldfact book
pop indoenisia:250,000,000
pop pakistan: 150,000,000
+= 400,000,000
* 0.95 (percentage of muslim in the country)
= 380,000,000
* 0.50 percentage of muslim in country who dont think "the rights and needs of the Palestinian people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists."
= 190,000,000

Im not saying that those 190 million want terrorist acts, but they do want the state of israel to just disappear, or feel that while it exists that palestinians will be trampled on. I wonder how theyll do that

btw thats 2 countries out many in that poll.
later,
epic

 

[Natoma]

Again, you have no clue how to read a poll. Lets try this. Fake poll, obviously.

Poll A: Indian Hindu, do you support killing?

99%: No
1%: Yes

Poll B: Indian Hindu, do you support war?

50%: Yes
50%: No

Thus, from poll B, I can conclude that 50% of all indian hindus support killing, because support of war is implicitly a support of killing. That is the connection you're trying to make, and it is quite ludicrous.

 

[epicstruggle]

to me this:
"the rights and needs of the Palestinian people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists."
could have been caused by this.
"all previous attempts at peace and reconciliation between the palestinians and israelis have failed"
I think you are the one who cant read that poll question. Because i cant think of any other way to take "as long as the state of israel exists" than to mean "as long as the state of israel exists"!!


later,
epic

 

[Natoma]

As I said earlier,

As I stated earlier, this is a reflection of the hopelessness and jadedness with the many failed attempts at peace in the past. That is not an implicit support of terrorism. I can bet you that those numbers will decrease significantly if the US roadmap shows signs of progress.

But you go right ahead and continue to condemn an entire religion and the vast practitioners thereof for the terrorist actions of a few.

I believe that world peace and harmony cannot be acheived in any way unless, as a first step, supernatural religion in general is obliterated, or at least removed completely from politics and lawmaking. Do I therefore espouse the destruction of all people who believe in religion?

 

[epicstruggle]

Again, you have no clue how to read a poll. Lets try this. Fake poll, obviously.

Poll A: Indian Hindu, do you support killing?

99%: No
1%: Yes

Poll B: Indian Hindu, do you support war?

50%: Yes
50%: No

Thus, from poll B, I can conclude that 50% of all indian hindus support killing, because support of war is implicitly a support of killing. That is the connection you're trying to make, and it is quite ludicrous.

in this scenario you would be right that 50% of all indian hindus support killing, but the killing has to be done during a war. Or did i miss read your poll question.

Ok so what was the point of question A. Is it to invalidate question B? Because B and A ask 2 different things. Killing during a robbery and killing another soldier during war times are 2 different things to me.

later,
epic

 

[Natoma]

You did misread the poll question. I didn't ask nor make the distinction between killing in any situation. I made that distinction in my conclusion. You took your interpretation from my poll conclusion, not my poll question when as you stated, they are completely separate.

And that is the fundamental flaw in how you're reading this poll. You're trying to place a conclusion that this percentage of muslims support terrorism simply because they feel that the state of israel cannot exist if palestinians are to be taken care of. That there cannot be any other way, thus that must implicitly mean that they support terrorism. You say that you don't think those 190 million want terrorist acts and then you make that implication in the very next sentence.

You took one question and are trying to make a conclusion without the existence of a second question. If the second poll stated, "Do you support the killing of israelis" then you might have a point, but it did not. You are trying to make that conclusion based on the conclusion of the poll taker, rather than reading the actual question and what it is referring to, in context.

[EDIT]For instance, the majority of the world did not support the Iraq war. Can I conclude from this that, implicitly, the majority of the world supported the continued suffering of the Iraqi people? Because that is what you're trying to do. Stretch a conclusion to a secondary question that the original poll does not answer.[/EDIT]

 

[epicstruggle]

But you go right ahead and continue to condemn an entire religion and the vast practitioners thereof for the terrorist actions of a few.

I have re-read earlier comments about what I said on the subject, and would like to make an apology and revise what I meant to say.

I do not think that every believer of Islam is a terrorist, or is just as guilty, or has blood on his/her hands as the few violent extremists.

My original intent was to say that the peaceful part of Islam should not stand to this hostile take over of their religion. When I think of a terrorist act, my knee jerk reaction is there goes those muslims again. No offence but thats just the way I think of Islam now. I wish my reaction would be different, but i just feel right now that any future terrorist act will be caused by someone who espouses(sp?) to be a muslim whether or not they really are.

Hope i didnt add more fuel to this fire.

later,

 

[Fred]

Well the 1992 incident isnt as one sided as you make it appear Natoma, the Muslims hold a share of responsibility as well.

Frankly, all these religious groups irratate me (Christians and Jews as well). But I am not naive enough to think that abolishing religion from the mind of humanity would lead to a more peaceful society either.

The problem with Islam for practical purposes, is that holy warriors go straight to heaven. Suicide bombing is so much more difficult to prevent than regular car bombs, or other terrorism techniques. When the party is willing to lay his own life on the line, preventative measures are completely shot.

I wonder too if the US were to withdraw all aid from that side of the world (Israel included) how perception would change. Would it be more resentment to the West?

 

[Natoma]

Well the 1992 incident isnt as one sided as you make it appear Natoma, the Muslims hold a share of responsibility as well.

Never did I say they didn't. However, my point is that Hinduism is not the peaceful religion that epic was making it out to be.

Frankly, all these religious groups irratate me (Christians and Jews as well). But I am not naive enough to think that abolishing religion from the mind of humanity would lead to a more peaceful society either.

You might not think getting rid of supernatural religious beliefs would not in part lead to a better world, but frankly when I look at the conflicts around the world, much of them are fueled in part by religious hatreds and historical strife.

The problem with Islam for practical purposes, is that holy warriors go straight to heaven. Suicide bombing is so much more difficult to prevent than regular car bombs, or other terrorism techniques. When the party is willing to lay his own life on the line, preventative measures are completely shot.

Christianity has the same concept. If you die as a warrior for christ you are rewarded with heaven. Now the concept of "warrior" is the same as the concept of "jihad," i.e. the struggle, in that it is not meant to be taken physically but spiritually and mentally.

Christians had the same problem during the crusades, in that they took the concept of being a warrior for christ literally. You could say the same for some muslims today with jihad.

I wonder too if the US were to withdraw all aid from that side of the world (Israel included) how perception would change. Would it be more resentment to the West?

That quandry is worthy of it's own topic.

 

[nelg]

You might not think getting rid of supernatural religious beliefs would not in part lead to a better world, but frankly when I look at the conflicts around the world, much of them are fueled in part by religious hatreds and historical strife.

The reality is that people will find the fuel they need to justify any conflict. It's just the human condition.

 

[DemoCoder]

You might not think getting rid of supernatural religious beliefs would not in part lead to a better world, but frankly when I look at the conflicts around the world, much of them are fueled in part by religious hatreds and historical strife.

Well, I also see millions dead from political movements as well. Communists and other separatist movements. The treatment of people under communism of the 20th century was far worse than the inquisition. My Wife's parents, for example, were sent to work in the countryside during the cultural revolution, simply because they were educated.

I also wouldn't count out a "twelve monkeys" scenario, since some of the extreme environmental groups are frankly religious in their worldview of nature, and would have no problem killing off huge numbers of people. Some Earth Firsters have already made comments akin to concept that AIDS is good for third world, because their attainment of first world standards of living is a huge consumption danger to the planet.

 

[pax]

Im not worried about the mostly harmless and in fact very humanitarian greens so much as the Ted Turners and Prince Philips of the world who've alluded to a 'need' to 'reduce' the human population to 500 million in about 50 years... um yeah as if that didnt entail genocide...

 

[DemoCoder]

How about the Earth Liberation Front (or similar vandals/terrorists), who for example, sabotaged ski-lift cables in many pacific northwest resorts. Had these not been found, perhaps hundreds of people would been killed when the lift failed.


With bio-technology soon to become as easy as hacking a computer virus, all it takes in one nutcase. I'm not worried about Ted Turner either, I'm worried about some of the nutcases I see on green internet mailing lists.


You know, the Unabomber types.